I've realized a way to improve performance on this would be to move it to medical_damage instead, but I don't want to separate damage handling from engine (or add more things to the woundReceived event)

I'm happy with this for now. Ready for review.

It's already a problem without this PR. NIArms ammo goes hard on hit but low on caliber for example. This at least finally sets a hard line in the sand for what works and what doesn't, IMO.

But thinking of fixing it:

• I don't like the idea of having more compats we have to manually patch for. Dynamic projectile replacement to use ACE ammo based on some lookup would be great but performance-intensive.
• This could be moved to a separate addon (medical_armorpen) with its own sub-compats for altering ammo stats (through hard patches). Hard-edits would disallow disabling this without removing the addon though.
• Hard patches could target magazines and change their ammo instead, but again it's compat work. Probably the most compatible option going for that though.
• Base penetration/damage on some other property, preferably from ballistics as that's mostly accurate across all mods, but I'm not a material expert either and there's some things you just can't derive from just ammunition weight, shape, and size.

It's already a problem without this PR. NIArms ammo goes hard on hit but low on caliber for example. This at least finally sets a hard line in the sand for what works and what doesn't, IMO.

I was just comparing the behaviour of when the setting is off vs. on. I use Sum of trauma as the fatal damage source, which makes it, with alternate armor pen off, take more or less the same amount of hits to kill an enemy with the same caliber. From a balancing point of view that's neat, mod provenance doesn't matter; however, from a realism point of view it sucks, as AP or any enhanced ammo like EPR doesn't make a difference.

Turning alternate armor pen on makes EPR and AP shine, although the amount depends on from which mod the ammo is from - is what I originally meant to say.

I don't like the idea of having more compats we have to manually patch for.

If we add patches, then it would have to be compats via ammo. Mod makers don't always use inheritance to the full extent when it comes to magazines, i.e. readding the ammo attribute every time. If we edit the ammo class itself, it's far less to deal with imo.
But as you said. this isn't ideal either, as disabling it means needing to remove the PBO(s). I'm also not a fan of doing things at runtime - need to think about this more.

Using round names for effect in damage calculations

No.

For the rest of the stuff if you can make it work consistently then open a PR.

If we add patches, then it would have to be compats via ammo. Mod makers don't always use inheritance to the full extent when it comes to magazines, i.e. readding the ammo attribute every time. If we edit the ammo class itself, it's far less to deal with imo.
But as you said. this isn't ideal either, as disabling it means needing to remove the PBO(s). I'm also not a fan of doing things at runtime - need to think about this more.

Worst case we make compats under the mods requiring ace_medical to be loaded and thus they'll be disabled alongside medical.

Would it be possible to add a setting that acts as a multiplier to the round's penetration capability? To me it would seem by far the simplest way to eliminate discrepancies between how different mods configure their ammo. Or if people just don't want armor to be as impactful.

@Zantza sure, just add a new setting to initSettings and a coefficient to the penFactor

If I remember correctly, there was a slider to adjust the armor penetration in the Medical settings before the last update,
There is now only the checkbox ace_medical_alternateArmorPenetration ?

First of all, thank you very much for your efforts in improving the Ace medical system. However, I have noticed some inconsistencies in the latest update. (and sorry third but last post after more investigations).

The first issue is that the default settings are configured to prevent damage to limbs, which seems unusual.
Once activated, the threshold of 5.0 seems much too high as it does not inflict any damage. This is less obvious this time.
Next, I can't see any difference between JHP and FMJ ammunition, despite this being the whole point of the feature.
Finally, it seems that vanilla ammunition overrides all settings.

Besides, the RHS ammunition is causing deadly bruising, but not bleeding? I assume it's a bug, given that there is blood on the ground.

I ran the following linked tests with JHP and FMJ bullets from RHS (visible in the top right corner of the HUD), but could not notice any differences. Also it seems the vanilla handgun is not affected by the update/settings.

The feature is seeding a lot of misunderstanding among the community. Some damage were already controversial before the update and this one is giving more confusion about settings and the damage system.

I think everyone would appreciate if you could clarify some settings or rerun more tests.
Thank you in advance <3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utSGyUVhAEM&feature=youtu.be

The first issue is that the default settings are configured to prevent damage to limbs, which seems unusual.

No it doesn't. As you show yourself in your video, the vanilla P99 still damages limbs.

Once activated, the threshold of 5.0 seems much too high as it does not inflict any damage. This is less obvious this time.

What threshold are you talking about? What do you mean by 'this time'- context?

Next, I can't see any difference between JHP and FMJ ammunition, despite this being the whole point of the feature.

If you read the PR's description, this is in fact not the whole point of the feature. I'll quote directly:

The idea is that AP ammo should actually make a difference against armored infantry, rather than just cover and vehicles.

You have tested none of these in your video. Test any AP vs non AP ammo on armor: e.g. base game tracer vs ACE AP, or even RHS M855 vs RHS M855A1 and you'll notice a difference in how many shots it will take to knock a person unconscious (and you'll likely see a difference in wounds created).

Finally, it seems that vanilla ammunition overrides all settings.

What settings are you referring to - context?

I ran the following linked tests with JHP and FMJ bullets from RHS (visible in the top right corner of the HUD), but could not notice any differences. Also it seems the vanilla handgun is not affected by the update/settings.

ACE balances for the base game. RHS balances things much differently than the base game and we don't take that into account. Hence why you are seeing weird things like:

Besides, the RHS ammunition is causing deadly bruising, but not bleeding? I assume it's a bug, given that there is blood on the ground.

Why haven't we balanced RHS damage? It's simple: we haven't found a good approach for a solution yet.

Thanks a lot for direct answers !
I thought FMJ were AP but indeed not, I misunderstood that and the feature then, my bad. I'll then do more tests with your informations.

However, I genuinely still don't get everything yet. If the feature aims to change AP amo effect, should not we feel only changes for armored soldier ? Or is it like a needed global rewrite with side effects to be able to include this feature ?

No it doesn't. As you show yourself in your video, the vanilla P99 still damages limbs.

I just don't get why limbs are damaged when the option in set to never have damage on limbs.
With the information I have, it just makes me think vanilla is overriding the option since it's having different effect with the g17.

Once activated, the threshold of 5.0 seems much too high as it does not inflict any damage. This is less obvious this time.
What threshold are you talking about? What do you mean by 'this time'- context?

The limbs damaged threshold is set too high by default to use the RHS G17 for example.
It's obviously not the reference for mod testing but then, all mods amo and weapons needs re-test and patch ? It's like there is hidden armor in these pants as it shows only bruises damages. It's just confusing even if it has effect on killing the ai.

ACE balances for the base game. RHS balances things much differently than the base game and we don't take that into account. Hence why you are seeing weird things like:

Fair, so same problem as the question above.

Again, i just want to understand and help by giving feedback.

I just don't get why limbs are damaged when the option in set to never have damage on limbs.

I suggest reading the tooltip of the setting, because that's not at all what that setting does. Feel free to ask on discord if you don't understand something, because it's off topic for this thread.

However, I genuinely still don't get everything yet. If the feature aims to change AP amo effect, should not we feel only changes for armored soldier ? Or is it like a needed global rewrite with side effects to be able to include this feature ?

It affects all armor, including armor that is in uniforms (which is more than you'd expect). I will try to take a look at what I can do to improve it.