Hm, I actually disabled the chunked kernel in the CUDA backend only because I thought it is not implemented. If it is ready, then we should enable it - at the very least the ggml graph will become constant.

Btw, on DGX Spark it seems to perform better compared to the unfused path:

GGML_CUDA=ON ./scripts/compare-commits.sh master gg/llama-allow-gdn-ch llama-bench -m ~/models/qwen3-next-q4_0.gguf -m ~/models/Kimi-Linear-48B-A3B-Instruct-jp-imatrix.Q4_K_M.gguf -m ~/models/unsloth_Qwen3.5-27B-GGUF_Qwen3.5-27B-Q4_K_M.gguf -ngl 99 -fa 1 -t 1 -dio 1 -p 512,2048 -n 32 -ub 2048 -r 3

If you can confirm correctness of the implementation, I think it is fine to enable it.

I think what you're enabling currently is just the autoregressive kernel right?

Ok I see. It's still the autoregressive kernel iterating over all tokens.

Strange that's it faster for Kimi-linear by so much. I think it makes sense to enable it when kda is true? I see it's faster on 5090 as well. cc: @ymcki

Is the current branch much slower on 5090 with non-KDA models?

Yes it's much slower for qwen3.5

Ok, enabled it only for KDA for now.

Also changed the broadcast pattern to interleaved since this is what is used for Qwen3.5 and helps to avoid explicit repeats of the Q and K tensors. Added TODOs to make the broadcast configurable which will allow to avoid the repeats for Qwen3 Next in a similar way.

After a few tests and making sure this branch works correctly, we can merge.

Strange that's it faster for Kimi-linear by so much. I think it makes sense to enable it when kda is true? I see it's faster on 5090 as well. cc: @ymcki

Originally, pwilkin implemented backend agnostic chunking implementation for pp and recurrent implementation for inference. Recurrent is a special case of chunking in which chunk_size == tokens_len.

Later pwilkin found that for inference, doing tokens one by one in autoregressive mode is faster than recurrent, so the recurrent form is replaced by the autoregressive form.

Originally, cacaview implemented CPU and CUDA recurrent form:

// ggml_compute_forward_kda_scan
// KDA (Kimi Delta Attention) recurrence:
//   h[t] = exp(g[t]) * h[t-1] + k[t]^T * (beta[t] * (v[t] - h[t-1] @ k[t]))
//   o[t] = q[t]^T @ h[t]

static void ggml_compute_forward_kda_scan_f32(
        const ggml_compute_params * params,
        ggml_tensor * dst) {
    const ggml_tensor * src0 = dst->src[0]; // h    {head_dim, head_dim, n_head, n_seqs+}
    const ggml_tensor * src1 = dst->src[1]; // q    {head_dim, n_head, n_seq_tokens, n_seqs}
    const ggml_tensor * src2 = dst->src[2]; // k    {head_dim, n_head, n_seq_tokens, n_seqs}
    const ggml_tensor * src3 = dst->src[3]; // v    {head_dim, n_head, n_seq_tokens, n_seqs}
    const ggml_tensor * src4 = dst->src[4]; // g    {head_dim, n_head, n_seq_tokens, n_seqs}
    const ggml_tensor * src5 = dst->src[5]; // beta {n_head, n_seq_tokens, n_seqs}
    const ggml_tensor * src6 = dst->src[6]; // ids  {n_seqs}

    const int ith = params->ith;
    const int nth = params->nth;

    const int64_t head_dim     = src0->ne[0];
    const int64_t n_head       = src1->ne[1];
    const int64_t n_seq_tokens = src1->ne[2];
    const int64_t n_seqs       = src1->ne[3];

    // Output offset for hidden state
    const int64_t y_off = ggml_nelements(src1) * sizeof(float);

    GGML_ASSERT(src0->nb[0] == sizeof(float));
    GGML_ASSERT(src1->nb[0] == sizeof(float));
    GGML_ASSERT(src2->nb[0] == sizeof(float));
    GGML_ASSERT(src3->nb[0] == sizeof(float));
    GGML_ASSERT(src4->nb[0] == sizeof(float));
    GGML_ASSERT(src5->nb[0] == sizeof(float));
    GGML_ASSERT(src6->nb[0] == sizeof(int32_t));

    // Parallelize over heads
    const int dh = (n_head + nth - 1) / nth;
    const int ih0 = dh * ith;
    const int ih1 = MIN(ih0 + dh, (int)n_head);

    const int32_t * ids = (const int32_t *) src6->data;

    // Temporary buffer for h @ k computation
    float * hk_buf = (float *) malloc(head_dim * sizeof(float));

    static int debug_count = 0;
    bool do_debug = false; // (ith == 0 && debug_count++ < 20);
    
    for (int i3 = 0; i3 < n_seqs; ++i3) {
        // Get initial hidden state for this sequence
        const float * h0 = (const float *) ((const char *) src0->data + ids[i3] * src0->nb[3]);
        // Output hidden state location
        float * h_out = (float *) ((char *) dst->data + i3 * src0->nb[3] + y_off);

        for (int ih = ih0; ih < ih1; ++ih) {
            // Per-head hidden state: [head_dim, head_dim]
            // Copy initial state to output (will be updated in place)
            const float * h_in = h0 + ih * head_dim * head_dim;
            float * h = h_out + ih * head_dim * head_dim;
            
            // Copy initial state, but check for invalid values and clear if needed
            bool need_clear = false;
            for (int i = 0; i < head_dim * head_dim && !need_clear; ++i) {
                if (!isfinite(h_in[i]) || fabsf(h_in[i]) > 1e6f) {
                    need_clear = true;
                }
            }
            for (int i = 0; i < head_dim * head_dim; ++i) {
                h[i] = need_clear ? 0.0f : h_in[i];
            }

            for (int it = 0; it < n_seq_tokens; ++it) {
                const float * q_raw = (const float *) ((const char *) src1->data + 
                    it * src1->nb[2] + i3 * src1->nb[3]) + ih * head_dim;
                const float * k_raw = (const float *) ((const char *) src2->data + 
                    it * src2->nb[2] + i3 * src2->nb[3]) + ih * head_dim;
                const float * v = (const float *) ((const char *) src3->data + 
                    it * src3->nb[2] + i3 * src3->nb[3]) + ih * head_dim;
                const float * g = (const float *) ((const char *) src4->data + 
                    it * src4->nb[2] + i3 * src4->nb[3]) + ih * head_dim;
                const float beta = ((const float *) ((const char *) src5->data + 
                    it * src5->nb[1] + i3 * src5->nb[2]))[ih];
                
                float * y = (float *) dst->data + 
                    it * n_head * head_dim + i3 * n_seq_tokens * n_head * head_dim + ih * head_dim;

                // L2 normalize q and k (critical for KDA stability)
                float q_norm = 0.0f, k_norm = 0.0f;
                for (int i = 0; i < head_dim; ++i) {
                    q_norm += q_raw[i] * q_raw[i];
                    k_norm += k_raw[i] * k_raw[i];
                }
                q_norm = sqrtf(q_norm + 1e-6f);
                k_norm = sqrtf(k_norm + 1e-6f);
                
                // Debug output
                if (do_debug && ih == 0 && it == 0 && i3 == 0) {
                    fprintf(stderr, "DEBUG KDA: q_raw[0]=%f, k_raw[0]=%f, v[0]=%f, g[0]=%f, beta=%f\n",
                            q_raw[0], k_raw[0], v[0], g[0], beta);
                    fprintf(stderr, "DEBUG KDA: q_norm=%f, k_norm=%f, exp(g[0])=%f, scale=%f\n",
                            q_norm, k_norm, expf(g[0]), 1.0f / sqrtf((float)head_dim));
                }
                
                // Normalized q and k with scale = 1/sqrt(head_dim)
                // Note: scale is applied only to q after L2 normalization
                const float scale = 1.0f / sqrtf((float)head_dim);
                float q[128], k[128];  // assume head_dim <= 128
                for (int i = 0; i < head_dim; ++i) {
                    // L2 normalize then scale q
                    q[i] = (q_raw[i] / q_norm) * scale;
                    // L2 normalize k (no scale)
                    k[i] = k_raw[i] / k_norm;
                }

                // KDA recurrence: h[t] = exp(g[t]) * h[t-1] + k[t]^T * (beta[t] * (v[t] - h[t-1] @ k[t]))
                // Note: Apply decay first, then compute retrieval and update

                // Step 1: Apply decay to h first: h = h * exp(g)
                // Clamp g to [-80, 80] to avoid numerical overflow
                for (int i = 0; i < head_dim; ++i) {
                    const float g_clamped = fminf(fmaxf(g[i], -80.0f), 80.0f);
                    const float exp_gi = expf(g_clamped);
                    for (int j = 0; j < head_dim; ++j) {
                        h[i * head_dim + j] *= exp_gi;
                    }
                }

                // Step 2: Compute h^T @ k -> hk_buf [head_dim]
                // hk_buf[j] = sum_i (h[i,j] * k[i]) which is column j of h dotted with k
                for (int j = 0; j < head_dim; ++j) {
                    float sum = 0.0f;
                    for (int i = 0; i < head_dim; ++i) {
                        sum += h[i * head_dim + j] * k[i];
                    }
                    hk_buf[j] = sum;
                }

                // Step 3: Compute delta = beta * (v - hk) and update h
                // h = h + outer(k, delta) where outer(k,delta)[i,j] = k[i] * delta[j]
                for (int i = 0; i < head_dim; ++i) {
                    for (int j = 0; j < head_dim; ++j) {
                        const float delta_j = beta * (v[j] - hk_buf[j]);
                        h[i * head_dim + j] += k[i] * delta_j;
                    }
                }

                // Step 4: Compute output y = h^T @ q -> [head_dim]
                // vLLM: b_o = tl.sum(b_h * b_q[:, None], 0) means o[j] = sum_i(h[i,j] * q[i])
                for (int j = 0; j < head_dim; ++j) {
                    float sum = 0.0f;
                    for (int i = 0; i < head_dim; ++i) {
                        sum += h[i * head_dim + j] * q[i];
                    }
                    y[j] = sum;
                }
                
                // Debug output
                if (do_debug && ih == 0 && it == 0 && i3 == 0) {
                    // Find max abs value in h for stability check
                    float h_max = 0.0f;
                    for (int i = 0; i < head_dim * head_dim; i++) {
                        if (fabsf(h[i]) > h_max) h_max = fabsf(h[i]);
                    }
                    fprintf(stderr, "DEBUG KDA: y[0]=%.6f, h_max=%.6f, exp(g[0])=%.6f\n",
                            y[0], h_max, expf(g[0]));
                }
            }
        }
    }

    free(hk_buf);
}

As you can see, aside from some hard coded numbers, it is a cleaner implementation than the reshape and solve_tri used in pwilkin and my backend agnostic chunking implementations. So if your implementation is along this line, then it is not surprising that it is much faster.

But this is a recurrent impl, not sure if the chunking version of it can be faster or not.

Yes, this is what the current recurrent version in master roughly looks like. We need to figure out the boundary between the chunked and autoregressive version, clearly it's not 1 and is also device dependent

Happy to discuss it or not, up to you but this tone is not productive. If you don't want to collaborate, just say so and I'll refrain.

Try to follow our policy please, it is there for a reason, it is extremely tiresome for everyone every time it is not.

Is it just me or did the Github runners become very slow lately? I.e. it takes very long to pick up the jobs.

Is it just me or did the Github runners become very slow lately? I.e. it takes very long to pick up the jobs.

I see the same. For me, it now takes about a day to finish all CI jobs.

Is it just me or did the Github runners become very slow lately? I.e. it takes very long to pick up the jobs.

It is not just you, I've been regularly slaying queues once required tests have finished (or PR has merged) just to ensure everything doesn't completely grind to a halt...

Yeah, the trend is clear. I think we have to move as much as possible from the CI to self-hosted runners very soon.

Queue time for last 6 months

Happy to discuss it or not, up to you but this tone is not productive. If you don't want to collaborate, just say so and I'll refrain.

Try to follow our policy please, it is there for a reason, it is extremely tiresome for everyone every time it is not.

What exactly about my comment was tiresome?

I shouldn't have to explain this but I have dyslexia. I use AI the same way someone might use spellcheck to format and catch errors. That is the extent of it. Spellcheck works for short discussions like this, not technical posts. It's 100% my words and my concepts and my posts and I have strict guardrails in place to keep it that way.

Perhaps a CODEOFCONDUCT.md needs to be made as am17an's response was unreasonable and the time spent on this exchange and the sudden commentary on multiple PR's has wasted far more time than briefly reading my formatted technical post ever would have.

If this is how outside contributors are treated for using accessibility tools, I have no choice but to stop contributing to this project once I've completed my PRs.

If you really think this would be better than what I originally wrote... then I owe you ALL an apology.

Try to follow our policy please, it is there for a reason, it is extremely tiresome for everyone every time it is not.

What exactly about my comment was tiresome?

I'll reshuffle the words; It is extremely tiresome for everyone every time the policy is not followed.

If you really think this would be better than what I originally wrote... then I owe you ALL an apology.

It's about perception, one does not feel valued in a conversation if it seems artificially one-sided, nothing against your wording or your need for tools, TBH I find your original text just fine, just insert a few newlines, have more faith in your skills. :)

@ProgenyAlpha the issue is that when one sees a clearly AI-written or at least AI-formatted comment, it's hard to tell how much effort a human put into it, and whether or not it's worth human time and attention reading and responding to it. LLMs can quickly and cheaply produce millions of long, detailed, and coherent sounding comments that may or may not be bullshit. With the amount of LLM-generated content getting produced these days, including PRs and comments on repos, it becomes tiresome to read and understand everything that LLMs produce. A policy of requiring all comments to be written by a human makes it easier to decide if it's worth another human spending their own time to read and respond to it.

Your writing is understandable as is, just use some punctuation, newlines, and perhaps backticks for inline code snippets.

@sultanqasim Thank you for your feedback, I have no issue with the policy if someone is blatantly violating it. I'm not violating it. The spam concern is valid in the abstract but doesn't apply here. I did not submit a long detailed LLM generated post and all of the things you say my original posted needed, is exactly what was done to the original post.

I have open PRs, I'm a new responsive and friendly active contributor, and my comment was a direct technical proposal to two people about a problem they both named and it was personal and friendly and not AI.

What was NOT personal and friendly was am17an response, which was far more egregious to what everyone seems to be trying to protect.

@CISC Ironically, one does not feel valued for being unfairly nitpicked.

I'm not violating it

Yes you are. Please read https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md

It is strictly prohibited to use AI to write your posts for you (bug reports, feature requests, pull request descriptions, Github discussions, responding to humans, ...).

Seems like you already acknowledged this in #20334 (comment)

You are also violating another policy

If you are a new contributor, limit your open PRs to 1.

Sorry for being rude, I understand your intentions might be good. However these policies exist for maintainers to not get overloaded and ensure human-driven communication happens.

Yes you are. Please read https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md

Except I'm not. I wrote everything. Nothing was written by AI. Nowhere in CONTRIBUTING.md does it prohibit using AI to format a technical post before posting it.

It is strictly prohibited to use AI to write your posts for you (bug reports, feature requests, pull request descriptions, Github discussions, responding to humans, ...).

Seems like you already acknowledged this in #20334 (comment)

Another missed detail. This comment on my PR was posted immediately following your rude comment here and I gave it a thumbs up out of respect for the POLITE way it was brought up and to keep things isolated to this PR.

You are also violating another policy

If you are a new contributor, limit your open PRs to 1.

This policy A) was written 3 days ago, after I started contributing weeks ago and B) the additional PRs were explicitly made after being directed to do so by @ggerganov and @0cc4m

Sorry for being rude, I understand your intentions might be good. However these policies exist for maintainers to not get overloaded and ensure human-driven communication happens.

I genuinely think your reaction, tone, and delivery has nothing to do with your desire to maintain the integrity of anything. Every communication from me has been human-driven and to act like I'm responsible for overloading the team after the drama you've created with your callous reply is a bit silly.

I have dyslexia. Using accessibility tools is not the same as AI authorship, and conflating the two is something I'd hope a project of this caliber would understand. I hope we can move past this and focus on the work.

Except I'm not. I wrote everything. Nothing was written by AI. Nowhere in CONTRIBUTING.md does it prohibit using AI to format a technical post before posting it.

Perhaps it is not clear to you or your AI, but formatting a technical post counts as being written by AI. At this point I think you're being disingenuous and I will not engage with you anymore. Good luck.

Perhaps it is not clear to you or you AI, but formatting a technical post counts as being written by AI. At this point I think you're being disingenuous and I will not engage with you anymore. Good luck.

Hard disagree, and your ignoring my other talking points and refusing to have dialogue just reinforces that your sole focus here had nothing to do with maintaining human to human communication. I disclose to you my disability and you return with a dismissive and dehumanizing "it's not clear to you and your AI" comment.

Anyone else find it ironic the thread was locked by an AI bot for being too heated? Lol, too funny.