Philip Blumel: Here we go again. Is a Trump third term back on the table? Hi, I’m Philip Lumel. Welcome to no Uncertain Terms, the official podcast of the Tournaments movement. This is episode 277, published December 22, 2025.
Stacey Selleck: Your sanctuary from partisan politics.
Philip Blumel: A month or two after President Trump conceded that the Constitution does not permit him to run for term, the idea has nonetheless resurfaced. Last week, the Wall Street Journal reported that lawyer Alan Dershowitz gave the President a draft copy of his new book, claiming that the Constitution is ambiguous on the question. Really? Now, before we get into this, let’s just remind ourselves what the 22nd amendment. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice. That’s right. Let’s hear it again. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice. Okay, back to the story. Dershowitz handed Trump the draft of this book, which apparently is titled Could President Trump Constitutionally Serve a Third Term? Which is set to be published next year. The famous defense lawyer who assisted President Trump during the impeachment process in Trump’s first term told the Wall Street Journal that the book describes various ways a person could serve a third term at U.S. Tournaments. Of course, we naturally support the 22nd Amendment. In fact, we pay tribute to the amendment every term limits day. February 27th. February 27th, by the way, was the day that the 22nd Amendment was ratified in 1951.
Philip Blumel: And of course, we support the amendment, whether the president is Donald Trump or Barack Obama or anyone else. In fact, both Trump and Obama have explicitly advocated tournaments over the years. Now, while Trump had some fun trolling the media on this issue this year, the 22nd Amendment was, in our view, never in any danger, and still isn’t. According to White House chief of staff Susie Wiles in a Vanity Fair article published last week, the President knows he can’t run again. Now, the book isn’t out yet, but apparently Dershowitz suggests that amongst other avenues backed to the White House, that Trump could be placed back in office by the Congress. This is the way the Wall Street Journal explains it. If Trump were to be declared the winner of another election, Dershowitz proposes that the members of the Electoral College could abstain their vote when they meet to cast their ballots. Once they abstain, Dershowitz argues, the election could be decided by Congress. They would then select and not elect the president. Dershowitz said in describing the idea. Get it? No person shall be elected to the office of the president more than twice, says the 22nd Amendment.
Philip Blumel: But under this scenario, the person in question is not being elected, but instead selected. Another idea is that Trump could run for speaker of the House. You know, believe it or not, the speaker does not have to be a member of Congress. And then allies like J.D. Vance or Donald Trump Jr might run for president with a plan not to serve. They resign, and the speaker of the House ascends to the presidency. Well, may you laugh, but we have seen politicians in state houses and even city councils contrive outrageous justifications like these to try to cling to power. They usually get shot down in court, but not always. So they keep trying. Dershowitz here should be ashamed of himself. There is no question the intent of the 22nd Amendment is that no president be permitted to serve three terms. Dershowitz is simply using rhetoric and legal technicalities to try to defy this decidedly unambiguous amendment. Now, how is what Dershowitz is doing any different than what former Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez, also a lawyer, did to his country? In the last episode of no Uncertain Terms, we told the story of Hernandez’s effort in 2015 to stack his Supreme Court with cronies so that they would find term limits written directly and also unambiguously in the Honduran Constitution Article 239 to somehow be unconstitutional.
Philip Blumel: Well, fortunately, the US is not Honduras and our institutions will endure.
Speaker 1: This is a public service announcement.
Philip Blumel:We all know there’s a problem, but is the answer age limits or term limits? In this episode’s public service announcement, we have the BBC’s US correspondent Katty Kay discussing the issue with Anthony Scaramucci on the Rest Is Politics podcast. You know where US Term limits lands on this matter, and apparently Katty Kay agrees.
Anthony Scaramucci : Should Congress and the Senate have an age limit to be in office? I just want to point out to everybody, we do have an age minimum. The House has a 25, there’s an age minimum. The Senate has a 30. As of right now, there’s no maximum age. And so you’d have to probably amend the Constitution to do it. But go ahead. Should we have an age limit?
Katty Kay: Has been on people’s recently with the retirement of Nancy Pelosi, who is 85, but she’s a mere whipper snapper compared to Chuck Grassley, who is the oldest member of the Senate at the grand old age of 92. He has now eclipsed the previous oldest record holder, which was Senator Dianne Feinstein, who was in the office at 90 when she died. There is, I think, a real question here, particularly as you get younger members coming in to the House of Representative and even younger members coming into the Senate and younger voters who are saying, hold on a second, these guys who are hanging onto power, they don’t understand us, they don’t understand our financial issues, they don’t understand that we can’t pay rent. They don’t understand AI. They don’t understand social media. I mean some of the hearings in the House and the Senate have been embarrassing when you’ve had these senators who have basically never logged on to social media, trying to regulate social media or understand social media. So I think it is something that’s been raised and I think actually Nancy Pelosi retiring, announcing her retirement at the age of 85 has raised the question again because it seems to me we should, if we have a minimum limit, we should also have a maximum limit.
Katty Kay: I mean, I’m actually in favor of having some kind of term limits like they do in other countries where you can actually only be a member of the House of Representatives for a certain number of terms or be a senator for a certain number of terms as well. That would stop people going into the Senate and staying there for 30, 40 years, which is the case with some of these senators. So I think it would be a great idea to have term limits next.
Philip Blumel: In the last episode I reported on the appearance of former U.S. Representative David Trone of Maryland, best known as co founder of the Total Wine and More retail chain with Democratic state legislators in Philadelphia. A great event. Now sharing the title of co chair of U.S. Tournaments Convention Project with Representative Trone. Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida pitched the tournament’s convention to Republican legislators at a two day retreat in Delray Beach, Florida in early December. The Governor spoke to the group in the evening and then led a panel discussion and workshop on the issue on the following morning. 12 states so far have approved the application for an Article 5amendment proposing convention limited to the subject of congressional term limits. With Trone and DeSantis now on the case, who can doubt that number will expand in 2026? We’ll listen in to Governor DeSantis during his dinner remarks in Delray Beach. The Governor here is introduced by US Tournament CEO Nick Tombolides.
Philip Blumel: So I remember when he was new to Congress and wasn’t a household name yet. Governor DeSantis reached out our group, he met with our team and just said, I really believe in this. I want to help any way that I can. And shortly after that he became our lead sponsor in Congress. He worked harder than any other sponsor. We had to build support and I think that single handedly kind of revitalized the term limits debate in Washington. He never wavered advocating for our pledge program. And I think thanks in part to those early efforts of yours, we can now say we have over 150 pledge signers in Congress and we’re nearing 1,000 at the state legislative level.
Philip Blumel: So thank you.
Philip Blumel: As governor of Florida, he’s continued to lead the way on this issue. In 2022 he signed a law to term limit Florida school boards. In 2024 he signed our single subject application for a term limits convention. More recently, you have hit the road for term limits visiting as I mentioned, Indiana, South Carolina and Ohio. And in October, the governor joined forces with former Democratic congressman David Trone, the owner of Total Wine. If you like bourbon, you know what that place is. As national co chairs of this effort and since then they have published a New York Times op ed, they’ve appeared together on national television and it has brought new momentum and energy to the movement. Please join me in welcoming Governor Ron DeSantis.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: Oh no. Please be seated. Thanks so much. Thanks Nick. Appreciate it. Welcome to the free and very nice and warm state. We have two seasons in Florida, hot and nice, and we’re now in the nice stretch. So I know some of you guys came from places a little bit further north that may not be quite as tempered right now, but they’re all great places and it’s good. I, I really appreciate that introduction because, you know, sometimes people do read kind of the same things and it actually brings to mind when I was a congressman, I was throwing out the first pitch at a college baseball game in Florida. And so they, they announced, you know, now coming to throw the first pitch. Please give a warm round of applause to Congressman Ron DeSantis. Everyone, you know, clapping. And so I’m on the mound, the catcher is squatting, and then the PA announcer starts reading my entire bio. He was born. And I’m just thinking to myself, the catcher’s waiting, everyone’s waiting. I’m like, I cannot sit there on the mound and just let this. So I kind of told him, motioned it. I’m like, hey, shut it down.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: I rear back. You know, I play baseball in college. Nice, perfect strike. Everyone starts cheering all this. I shake the catcher’s hand, the applause dies down and he’s still reading my bio. And I’m like, oh my gosh. So I didn’t know that that necessarily had been caught on tape. And so the next year, one publication did it was leading up to opening day, they did the top three best and top three worst pitches for elected officials. So the worst, I think, was Obama. Although if they did appointed officials, it would have been Fauci during COVID when he threw it, like, to the first base dugout. And so the best was George W. Bush at Yankee Stadium after 9 11, which was an epic thing. Perfect strike. I think JFK was second. I was third, and they gave me third because they’re like, you know, he threw a perfect strike, and he didn’t make everyone listen to his entire biography and get the show on the road. But I’m really excited to have folks from around the country to do this. You know, people are so frustrated with what goes on in Congress. And honestly, like, yeah, Republicans may be less frustrated when it’s Republican, Democrats may be less of it’s them.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: But I don’t think anyone’s really happy, you know, with just how the modern Congress operates. And it goes back to what. What Phil was talking about, you know, the incentives need to change. You know, the idea that we’re just going to all of a sudden elect people new and all these issues are going to be dealt with. Well, we’ve been trying that for how long you need to change the incentives. And so that’s really, I think, what term limits does. And it’s true. Look, as a, as. As a leader, you know, as governor, you know, I set the agenda here. I get out, I go and. And champion things. And most of the best decisions I’ve made have been taking positions that have been, at the time, very unpopular. Like during COVID Oh, my God, he’s having kids in school. Like, how crazy. Like, all this stuff. Why are these people on the beaches? All this other stuff. Well, it turns out, you know, those were sound decisions, but they were unpopular at the time. And that’s kind of been my thing. You got to do what’s right. You can’t just chase popularity. Now. I think term limits is doing what’s right.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: But, man, you are never going to have a better hanging curveball politically in your career than term limits. I could be speaking at the Chamber of Commerce of Delray Beach. I could be speaking to the Elks Club, whatever. And I’ll talk about, you know, Florida. You know, we have a budget surplus.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: Yay.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: We’ve cut taxes. We have this, this. And you know what? We need to term limit Congress. Yay. Everyone starts going, and I’ve seen this for so many years. So, like, the polling’s great and I trust it, but I don’t even need that to know. I see how people respond to it. So I think you have an opportunity to really get behind an issue that’s going to resonate with the voters in your states. And I think it’s also an issue of, okay, we can sit and complain about Washington, you know, but the founders gave us a mechanism to be able to discipline wherever the federal government was located. I mean, they didn’t know at the time it ended up being Washington D.C. But they gave us a mechanism in the states to be able to push back. And that’s what you’re doing. And I think it shows that. I mean, I think people want some hope with some of this stuff. And if they see this momentum, you’re going to continue to see more and more interest build. It does go back. I think what Nick said, people don’t think it’s possible, so they want it, but then like, they don’t see it.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: But when they start seeing movement, they start seeing success. Man, I’m telling you, you’re going to see this build over and over. You know, I hear some of these arguments against it, like, oh, I would love term limits, but if you do that, then the staff and the lobbyists are going to control everything. Is that any different than what’s going on now? Could you have any more control of the staff when they do an omnibus bill? Is that something that’s being debated by all the members that are elected? No, it’s being written by staff in a back room somewhere and jammed down everybody’s throats. You know, when they’re doing all these other things, you know, lobbyists aren’t involved with that. I mean, there’s almost all this stuff is powered by lobbyists. And I’ll just say, you can’t do it anymore. I don’t think get any worse than is now. But just think about what something Jack Abramoff said. He was a lobbyist 20 years ago or something. He got involved in corruption and he said like he hated term limits. He’s like, I got to work so hard to get these guys to do what I say, and then you bring me new people.
Gov. Ron DeSantis:He’s like, he didn’t want new people. So that argument really does not go very far. It’s not not well thought out. And then people say, oh, well, bureaucrats are going to get more popular or get more powerful. Excuse me. The modern Congress, where career as careerism has increased, the Congress has neutered itself and given more power to the permanent bureaucracy. It has grown dramatically over the last 50 years. They don’t use the power of the purse, which is their most powerful weapon, the way the founders intended. That’s what’s happening under this current regime. I think if you had term limits, I think people would go on a mission. They know that they’re going to be there for six years in the House and maybe they run for Senate. But even if not, you go, man, you’re going to want to have something to show for it. You’re going to go up there and actually want to get the job done. So the incentives are just different. Those arguments, I don’t think make a lot of sense. And you do have some people say, oh, I don’t believe in Article 5. I don’t know, it could be a crazy convention.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: What would happen if you got to 31, 32 states? I mean, Congress would end up passing. I think they would, they would want to control. And I think what they would do is probably pass what we want. But they would just say all current members, you know, are not subject to it until, you know, a certain time or new people are elected. Which, you know, if we’re sitting here today, is that the most? Is that the 100% ideal? No, but the reality is if you actually went to convention and sent to states, that would take a lot longer. So by the time that passed, you would end up probably being right where you were anyways. And so I think that’s what would happen. I think Congress, if they feel the heat, they’re going to end part of it is self preservation. They don’t want to be seen as standing in the way that something that’s an 86, 88% issue, so that all that stuff will happen, you know, as you go. And I, and I do think so. You know, I. Recovering Congressman, I think I’ve recovered by three terms. Like, I was there, didn’t drink the Kool Aid and kind of did what I said to do.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: But, you know, I went in there and I was for term limits. But, you know, some of the people in this movement were like, don’t term limit yourself. And I’m like, why? They’re like, because you just, you want it. We want people that believe in term limits to be there and then do it. And so. But I knew I wasn’t going to be there long. I just, I was going to go and try to make a difference, but there’s no way I would have been able to do it for 30 years. And that’s the thing, you know, I was in there, you know, I was, you know, I would. Worked hard. I kind of knew the issues. But like the idea that you’re going to have any type of authority to be a committee chair, you got to be there for 20 years, you got to be there for 25. And so, okay, so if you’re a reformer and you want to go up and change Washington, the more you push for reform, the less likely you’re going to be on a path where you’re going to ever be in any of those positions. So you got to make this decision.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: You have this idealism. You want to go. You want to be able to do tax reform, whatever, that whatever is motivating you. The more that you are in tune with your voters and want to turn Washington upside down, the less likely in that path of you actually being able to exercise real power. Closes. So what do these guys do? Most of them play the game. They become part of the culture. So by the time they get into those positions, they’re neutered. They’re not. Basically, they don’t have the same fire that they used to have. And that’s what’s happened, you know, with this culture. You will sometimes hear some people say, well, the average congressman isn’t there for 30 years. The average is whatever. Less. And that. That is true. But understand what’s happening. You have people that are entrenched that have been there 20, 30, 40 years, and they control the levers. You do have people that get elected and they’re there for three or four, and they do get disenchanted because they have no pathway to go. So there is some turnover in the seats where it doesn’t matter. Right. Where people aren’t actually doing anything.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: Once they get into that, you know, those people are like fossils, and they’re there. So it’s kind of this weird dichotomy that’s happening. Term limits, obviously, would help, would help do that. And I do think you would get more quality people to want to actually run, knowing that you could go there and actually have an impact and that it’s not necessarily going to be something that you have to dedicate 30 years of your life to. You know, that’s appealing to some of these people that all they do is politics. It’s not as appealing to people that have other pursuits and other interests or involved in business or involved in other things. So term limits will open a pathway. And then just look strategically for some of the people that are in your legislative chambers, they’re gonna be able to run for Congress easier if there’s term limits. Right. I Mean, so there is the states, state legislators do kind of have like a. So not that every state legislature wants to run for congress, but the extent some do, well, guess what, you have a congressman that just gets elected, you know, six years later, you’re gonna have an open seat and you’re gonna have a chance.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: And these people sometimes will say, well, you don’t need term limits. The election is the term limit. Well, yeah, yeah, I mean like that makes sense. If you don’t have any concept of how our elections are run and the financing and everything that goes behind it, the incumbents hardwire it to be able to guarantee. So it’s a 90 some percent re election rate for incumbents. But I would guarantee you renomination in your party is even higher than that. And the reality is is most places, most districts are likely going to vote one way or the other, regardless of who the candidates are because of the political imbalance. Well then all that matters is the primary, right? What chance do these challengers have against the entrenched incumbents? With the way campaigns are financed with congressional franking privileges, all these other things, it’s almost impossible to be able to do it. So it’s not just simply say, oh, the people have a term limit, they can vote differently. They’re not provided informed choices where they’re able to do that because of all the things that goes in to running a campaign and how all this works. And they’ve worked very hard over many decades to make sure that the incumbents benefited.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: You know, they actually had it at one point where congressmen would raise money and if they retired, they could just pocket their campaign money. So literally these guys are sitting on 3, 4 million dollars and like they’re just like, they go out, it’s like a golden parachute. So they always do these things that people got really upset at that so they had to change it. But they will do whatever they need to do to give themselves a benefit. So don’t let people tell you that they can just elect somebody new. Oh, it’s just your choice. Well, it’s not that simple because of the way all this goes. So I want to be helpful. I’m glad you guys were able to come down here. I hope that you really push this in your states. Your voters will appreciate it. People even outside your districts and even outside your states will appreciate it. And this is a way to really, you know, we’ve got a very divided country. You know, I look at some of these people like, look, I’m conservative, I’m on the Republic. I’m proud of that. But, you know, some of these people are very far left, like this New York mayor getting elected.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: You know, some of these Congress people like Omar, I’m just like, man, like, this is like way beyond, and that’s just where we are. But, you know, wouldn’t it be great to have something that’d be really meaningful, where people aren’t always at each other’s throats, where it’s basically the people versus entrenched politicians? Well, this is. This is the best issue out there to be able to do it. And it’s something that’s not just Republican. It’s not just Democrat, independent. It’s not black, white, male, female. There’s no demographic in this country other than, you know, congressmen that have been there 20 years who oppose this. Every single one supports it. So let’s get it done. And the final thing I’ll just say is, you know, the founders, we’re having the 250th anniversary of the. The Declaration of Independence next July, and we’re doing a lot in Florida to kind of celebrate it. So I got. A friend of mine, was the chairman of Mount Vernon, so she got this great George Washington statue sent down. I put it in the state Capitol. In Florida, we’ve got counties named after founding fathers. So I brought a Jefferson statue to Jefferson County, Franklin to Franklin.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: We’re working on Hamilton. You know, the good thing is, you know, these. These liberal states, they don’t like the founding fathers. So I’m able to buy these things at a discount because, like, you know, Madison’s in the basement in Colorado somewhere. So I’m getting them for cheap, and we’re bringing them down and we’re doing all this stuff, and we’re going to continue to do more and more, and we’re doing. We’re going to end up doing an essay contest for Florida, 250 for our students. They’ll get scholarship money. We’re going to do all this stuff. But I think it’s important, Russ, because it causes us to reflect on, you know, what does it mean to be an American? What are those principles that the country was founded upon? And I believe they thought about when they did the Constitution, about doing term limits, and they called it rotation in office. And ultimately they decided against it because I think it was practical. You know, who would have wanted to be in Congress for 20 or 30 years? It just wasn’t. You know, you’re going horse and buggy from South Carolina to New York, which is where the Capitol was initially or even to D.C.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: You know, it was just, I think they just assumed that it would be more citizen legislating that would happen. I think now if they saw the way this operated, I do think people like Madison would, would, would really insist on term limits. So I think it is a, a constitutional reform that represents the best of the founding principles of this country. It’s responding to change circumstances and change dynamics. But I don’t think the fact that the founders didn’t do it would mean that looking at where we’re at now, that they wouldn’t be, you know, sitting here wanting to see it. Because, because I think they would want to do that. And you know, wouldn’t it be great in the 250th year to be able to see a bunch of states get on the board with this and do something that will really get a lot of public support behind them? So we’re on board on this. We’re happy to help in your states and others, you know, if we can be helpful. I will tell you, you know, you are doing God’s work here. There are so many people that are hungry for reform. They want to see that there’s some champions out there.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: And I don’t know how many of you are going to want to run for things in the future, whatever. I can just tell you, once voters know that you’re fighting for them and you’re willing to go out there and do what’s right, once they trust that and they have like, man, they will, they will back you. They will walk over broken glass to come out and support you. They just want to know that they have a champion. And I think this is a way for everybody to do things that are going to be met with really strong support from the people that elected you. So I know we’re going to be doing some more stuff. I look forward to catching up with some folks after this. I know we got some stuff. Tomorrow morning. I think I’m taking some of you guys out to the park, which is going to be a lot of fun. But thank you for doing this and I hope that this is kind of like one of many where we’re able to continue to gather support for term limits. And some of you guys that are here from like Idaho, Montana, you know, I’m willing to go up there, but not in the wintertime.
Gov. Ron DeSantis: So you gotta make sure you get it good. So thanks everybody. Thank you. Like the show, you can help by subscribing and leaving a five star review.
Stacey Selleck: On both Apple and Spotify.
Philip Blumel: It’s free. Thanks for joining us for another episode of no Uncertain Terms. The Term Limits Convention bills are moving through the state legislatures. This could be a breakthrough year for the Tournaments movement. To check on the status of the Tournaments Convention Resolution in your state, go to tournaments.com takeaction there you will see if it has been introduced and where it stands in the commissioning process on its way to the floor vote. If there’s action to take, you’ll see a Take Action button by your state. Click it. This will give you the opportunity to send a message to the most relevant legislators urging them to support the legislation. They have to know you are watching. That’s turnaments.com takeaction if your state has already passed the Tournaments Convention resolution or the bill’s not been introduced in your state, you can still help. Please consider making a contribution to US Term Limits. It is our aim to hit the reset button on the U.S. Congress and you can help. Go to term limits.com donate term limits.com donate thanks. We’ll be back next week.
Stacey Selleck: Find us on most social media at US term limits. Like us on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram and now LinkedIn.
