Wow, I'm seeing lots of good discussion going on. So, aside from my log, which I think I might condense into a weekly digest post in order to consolidate discussion, I wanted to touch on a few more topics before allowing my brain a little bit of rest. At any rate, I'm glad these discussions are being received well and generating discussions of their own. Understanding and working together are the only ways things start to change.

Thing the first: No is not a starting point for negotiations.*

* Phrasing thanks to tamnonlinear

Personal experience-- yesterday, I was at the bus stop, reading a book. Guy pulls up in his car and leans over. Starts off by saying "hey miss pretty lady," which, granted, is better than lots of overtly derogatory stuff. But it still sets the tone that the sole reason he has initiated conversation with me is purely physical. And, you know, if the conversation that follows is respectful, that's okay by me. Alas. It was not to be.

He asked if he could have my number. I said no, I have a boyfriend. He then asked what my problem was, couldn't we just be friends? Right. 'Cause I'm going to give a perfect stranger with whom I've had less than 15 seconds of interaction my number on the basis that he just wants to be 'friends.' Again, I said no. Then started the cajoling. I walked away, in the opposite direction of his traffic flow, so he couldn't back up. Consequently, the bus didn't see me. He was still hollering in my direction as the bus whizzed by. I had to wait another half hour for the next one.

This is what I ask of my guy friends and any guy who might be reading this: if you see a guy talk to a girl, and she says no, and he keeps pressing, take him aside and explain that "no means no" is really more than just a saying you're taught to regurgitate. Girls: keep saying no, and saying it forcefully. People need to understand that ignoring "no" means assuming that a woman a) can't make her own decisions based upon her own agency, and b) can be worn down to giving in. Both are demeaning and demote women to second-class status.

As for me, I need to look more closely at why the reason I gave for saying no was because I have a boyfriend. That's part of it, of course, but the bottom line is that I just didn't want to give a stranger my number, plain and simple. It's also buying into the cultural piece that a woman's company should be dictated by her partner, and I don't want to be a part of bolstering that assumption anymore. Also, the "I have a boyfriend" tactic doesn't work, anyway-- most men immediately switch to the false offer of friendship, or take it as a challenge.

naamah_darling had an excellent post on this-- I highly recommend you take a look. Choice excerpts:

Acting insulted that I don't want to fuck you is further evidence that you are unfuckable. It is not evidence that I am frigid, a bitch, stupid, crazy, or a lesbian. You are not an irresistible gentleman genius stud-monkey with the magic golden pecker that converts all women into come-drooling, cock-broken love slaves. In fact, even an actual irresistible gentleman genius stud-monkey with a magic golden pecker pretty much loses any claim to my attention the moment he acts as though he is entitled to it.

The idea that all women should be grateful for and accept any male attention, and that any woman who asserts the right to reject a man's company at her discretion -- and not her boyfriend/husband's -- is a selfish, hoity-toity bitch, is deeply ingrained in this culture. It is a sick and poisonous myth that is incredibly insidious, and its roots spread wide.

A lot of men claim that if women aren't interested, they should say so -- and we absolutely should say so, I totally agree. Yet, even when we do say so, there is an excellent chance we will be harangued instead of left alone. It's possible that a refusal will trigger a hostile display. We may be berated, harassed, followed, screamed at, or even physically seized and/or assaulted. So keep that in mind, okay?

Unwanted attention is negative because we don't actually know what is going to happen when we refuse it.

Adding to this: I have been followed, called a bitch, told I just couldn't handle their cock, etc. All of this pales in comparison to other womens' experiences, including that of Mildred Beaubrun, who was shot for not giving out her number.

Thing The Second: On Co-Opting The Argument

A trend I am seeing here is men in these discussions immediately stating that they're not "that guy." There has been a fair bit of co-opting the argument-- ie, taking discussions about female experience and making it about their experience. Misreading a thread denouncing crude and unacceptable behavior as also denouncing polite compliments. It's not fair to blame/punish the good guys, etc. The snarky thing to say here is that god knows, we don't already have enough male perspective jammed down our throats all day every day, and now discussions about our experiences are being again shifted to discussions of the male experience.

But then again, you can't really blame dudes for reacting in the way that society has conditioned them to react (though you can point it out and ask for change). We are coming from a male-centric culture. Mens' perspectives are catered to all day long. Hearing anger about the way men are inherently socialized can be threatening, 'cause men don't want to think that they might be 'that guy,' even if they're not overtly being demeaning. It raises hackles, makes a lot of people defensive.

But the bottom line is this: if you're not being an asshat, these posts are not about you. We're a culture bred to think everything is always about us, and we're a proud one, at that. But repeat after me: it's not always about you.

Regardless, check out this link that liminalia passed on. In my opinion, it should be required reading for any man who wants to participate in feminist discussions, and this is not meant to be condescending. It's just saying that I want us all to be on the same page. So please, read this. If you're a guy, it might help you feel less attacked.

Ilyka Damen: Occasionally Conversations with my Man Are Instructive

Also, required reading for both men and women (as women can also occasionally be 'That Guy,' me included):

synecdochic: Don't Be That Guy (even if you think you're not).