{"id":43521,"date":"2026-01-07T13:37:38","date_gmt":"2026-01-07T21:37:38","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/?p=43521"},"modified":"2026-01-07T13:37:46","modified_gmt":"2026-01-07T21:37:46","slug":"2158","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/2158\/","title":{"rendered":"20 Years After Dover: Steve Fuller on Science, Censorship, and the &#8220;Church of Darwin&#8221;"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>In this <strong>ID The Future<\/strong>, host Casey Luskin concludes a two-part conversation with University of Warwick professor and author Steve Fuller reflecting on the 20th anniversary of the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial, a case that examined the constitutionality of teaching intelligent design in public schools. Fuller discusses his experience serving as an expert witness for the defense. He defends his support of a policy that merely informed students of alternative theories to Darwinian evolution. He characterizes the Dover school board&#8217;s actions\u2014notifying students that alternative views like intelligent design (ID) existed and were available in the library\u2014as &#8220;pedagogically defensible&#8221; and &#8220;minimal&#8221;. He argues that high school is the ideal time to encourage an open mind toward science, as university education often pushes students toward a narrow &#8220;orthodoxy&#8221; to prepare them for research or exams.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The conversation then delves into Fuller\u2019s deeper critiques of the institutional censorship he argues exists within modern science, where ID concepts are effectively barred from professional journals. He challenges the judge\u2019s ruling in the Dover case, describing it as a cut and paste of the plaintiffs&#8217; playbook that failed to acknowledge the rich history of ID within the scientific revolution. Fuller discusses this rich tradition of intelligent design in philosophy, science, and theology in <a href=\"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/2157\/\">Part 1<\/a> of this interview. Fuller explains that ID is not inherently anti-science but rather anti-establishment, acting as a challenge to what he calls the &#8220;established church of Darwin.&#8221; Looking forward, he suggests that the current cultural and legal climate might help to shift the dial toward a more pluralistic approach to science education.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is Part 2 of a two-part interview. <a href=\"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/2157\/\">Listen to<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/tLDwlhFmlBs?si=ABKptuWhYgIEypjB\">watch<\/a> Part 1.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Dig Deeper<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Check out our book-length response to Judge Jones&#8217;s ruling in the Dover trial: <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.discovery.org\/b\/traipsing-into-evolution\/\">Traipsing Into Evolution<\/a><\/em>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Watch the first half of this conversation on our YouTube channel:<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"embed-frame\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"When a Court Decided What Science Is\" width=\"500\" height=\"281\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/tLDwlhFmlBs?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"In this ID The Future, host Casey Luskin concludes a two-part conversation with University of Warwick professor and author Steve Fuller reflecting on the 20th anniversary of the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial, a case that examined the constitutionality of teaching intelligent design in public schools. Fuller discusses his experience serving as an expert witness for the defense. He defends his support of a policy that merely informed students of alternative theories to Darwinian evolution. He explains why high school is an ideal time to encourage an open mind toward science. Then he pivots to discuss the deeper issue of institutional censorship in science and how establishment science functions as a religion. He characterizes intelligent design as \"anti-establishment\" and suggests there's hope for a more pluralistic approach to science in the near future. This is Part 2 of a two-part interview.","protected":false},"author":225,"featured_media":43522,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":true,"_editorskit_title_hidden":false,"_editorskit_reading_time":0,"_editorskit_is_block_options_detached":false,"_editorskit_block_options_position":"[]","sync_status":"synced","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/episodes.castos.com\/id\/2317339\/c1e-8rpmco52q6c46k9n-xx7vm6ooigoq-rvikg9.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"2158815","podmotor_episode_id":"2317339","castos_file_data":"{\"path\":\"https:\\\/\\\/episodes.castos.com\\\/id\\\/2317339\\\/c1e-8rpmco52q6c46k9n-xx7vm6ooigoq-rvikg9.mp3\",\"name\":\"IDTF 2158 Steve Fuller on Dover 20th Anniversary and Rich ID Tradition Part 2.mp3\"}","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:42:26","filesize":"58.4 mb","filesize_raw":"61203163","date_recorded":"2026-01-07 13:37:38","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"2158","itunes_title":"","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","footnotes":""},"categories":[],"tags":[3858,410,7944,4110,7948,562,811,6821,896,964,1083,1239,1730,1323,7943],"series":[7227],"speaker":[],"class_list":["post-43521","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-casey-luskin","tag-darwinism","tag-dover-20th-anniversary","tag-dover-intelligent-design-trial","tag-dover-school-board","tag-evolution","tag-intelligent-design","tag-judge-jones","tag-kitzmiller-v-dover","tag-materialism","tag-neo-darwinism","tag-public-school-science-teaching","tag-science-and-religion","tag-science-education","tag-steve-fuller","series-intelligent-design-the-future"],"acf":[],"author_names":["Steve Fuller"],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2026\/01\/AdobeStock413283958EditorialUseOnly-scaled.jpeg","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2021\/08\/idthefuture-cover.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-download\/43521\/2158.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-player\/43521\/2158.mp3","audio_player":"<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43521-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-player\/43521\/2158.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-player\/43521\/2158.mp3\">https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-player\/43521\/2158.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/feed\/podcast\/intelligent-design-the-future","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"nWrvoOH90l\"><a href=\"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/2158\/\">20 Years After Dover: Steve Fuller on Science, Censorship, and the &#8220;Church of Darwin&#8221;<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/2158\/embed\/#?secret=nWrvoOH90l\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;20 Years After Dover: Steve Fuller on Science, Censorship, and the &#8220;Church of Darwin&#8221;&#8221; &#8212; ID the Future\" data-secret=\"nWrvoOH90l\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script type=\"text\/javascript\">\n\/* <![CDATA[ *\/\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n\/* ]]> *\/\n<\/script>\n","syncStatus":{"isSynced":true,"status":"synced","error":"","message":"Sync with Castos complete.","title":"Synced"}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43521","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/225"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=43521"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/43521\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/43522"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=43521"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=43521"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=43521"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=43521"},{"taxonomy":"speaker","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/speaker?post=43521"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}