{"id":43002,"date":"2025-05-05T13:54:00","date_gmt":"2025-05-05T20:54:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/?p=43002"},"modified":"2025-05-05T13:54:04","modified_gmt":"2025-05-05T20:54:04","slug":"2052","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/2052\/","title":{"rendered":"Evolved or Engineered? A Geneticist Evaluates the Panda&#8217;s Thumb"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>In 1980, influential paleontologist and evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould wrote that \u201cwe can know that evolution has happened by the imperfections and oddities that life shows.\u201d But is that true? And what if we take a closer look at those assumed evolutionary oddities and see instead evidence of engineered elegance? On this <strong>ID The Future<\/strong>, host Andrew McDiarmid welcomes retired geneticist Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard L\u00f6nnig to the podcast to discuss his new paper reviewing the debate over the panda\u2019s thumb. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Giant pandas have an elongated wrist bone, the radial sesamoid, that allows them to handle and eat bamboo with great dexterity. Some claim it\u2019s an imperfectly and inefficiently formed structure that is clear evidence of evolutionary processes at work. Others call it one of the most extraordinary manipulation systems in the mammalian world and clear evidence of engineering. So which is it? That\u2019s the topic of our conversation today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Optimal Design<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Evolutionary biologists are trained to view organisms as products of a bottom-up, unguided process. So we really shouldn&#8217;t be surprised when they refer to innovations like the panda&#8217;s thumb as &#8220;clumsy,&#8221; &#8220;suboptimal,&#8221; &#8220;highly inefficient,&#8221; and &#8220;a crude structure.&#8221; It&#8217;s the best natural selection could do, after all. But what if biologists were trained in the principles of engineering? A deep understanding of the principles that govern the design of complex systems would give biologists a very different perspective. Dr. L\u00f6nnig discusses the work of bio-engineer Dr. Stuart Burgess, for example, who has worked on complex mechanical systems like Olympic bicycles and rockets. Burgess has also studied aspects of organismal form and found examples of optimal design. Says Burgess: \u201cAs for the Panda&#8217;s thumb, it is of course an excellent design for the design objectives.&#8221;\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is Part 1 of a two-part discussion. Look for Part 2 next!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Dig Deeper<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.weloennig.de\/PANDA.Part1.pdf\">Read Dr. L\u00f6nnig&#8217;s paper<\/a> for yourself and take a deeper look at the evidence for design in the panda&#8217;s thumb.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>More coverage of the panda&#8217;s thumb: <\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-id-the-future wp-block-embed-id-the-future\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"embed-frame\"><blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"y1W3O706vB\"><a href=\"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/1878\/\">The Panda&#8217;s Thumb: An Extraordinary Instance of Design?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" style=\"position: absolute; visibility: hidden;\" title=\"&#8220;The Panda&#8217;s Thumb: An Extraordinary Instance of Design?&#8221; &#8212; ID the Future\" src=\"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/1878\/embed\/#?secret=xkTkQqbdsH#?secret=y1W3O706vB\" data-secret=\"y1W3O706vB\" width=\"500\" height=\"282\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"In 1980, influential paleontologist and evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould wrote that \u201cwe can know that evolution has happened by the imperfections and oddities that life shows.\u201d But is that true? And what if we take a closer look at those assumed evolutionary oddities and see instead evidence of engineered elegance? On this ID The Future, host Andrew McDiarmid welcomes retired geneticist Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard L\u00f6nnig to the podcast to discuss his new paper reviewing the debate over the panda\u2019s thumb. Giant pandas have an elongated wrist bone, the radial sesamoid, that allows them to handle and eat bamboo with great dexterity. Some claim it\u2019s an imperfectly and inefficiently formed structure that is clear evidence of evolutionary processes at work. Others<a class=\"ellipsis article-more\" href=\"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/2052\/\"><span> Read More &rsaquo;<\/span><\/a>","protected":false},"author":58,"featured_media":43003,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":true,"_editorskit_title_hidden":false,"_editorskit_reading_time":0,"_editorskit_is_block_options_detached":false,"_editorskit_block_options_position":"[]","sync_status":"synced","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/episodes.castos.com\/id\/2025604\/c1e-73wnb9q7n3u2rk8x-v6d01jpkckpo-lpmy1i.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"1867382","podmotor_episode_id":"2025604","castos_file_data":"{\"path\":\"https:\\\/\\\/episodes.castos.com\\\/id\\\/2025604\\\/c1e-73wnb9q7n3u2rk8x-v6d01jpkckpo-lpmy1i.mp3\",\"name\":\"IDTF 2052 Wolf-Ekkehard Loenig on Engineering of the Panda's Thumb Part 1.mp3\"}","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:34:24","filesize":"47.3 mb","filesize_raw":"49647528","date_recorded":"2025-05-05 13:54:00","explicit":"","block":"","itunes_episode_number":"2052","itunes_title":"","itunes_season_number":"","itunes_episode_type":"full","footnotes":""},"categories":[],"tags":[269,338,410,528,562,576,7672,680,811,964,1068,1083,4428,7670,1149,7669,5814,7671,1937,5205,4252,4304],"series":[7227],"speaker":[],"class_list":["post-43002","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-charles-darwin","tag-convergent-evolution","tag-darwinism","tag-engineering","tag-evolution","tag-evolutionary-biology","tag-geneticist","tag-genetics","tag-intelligent-design","tag-materialism","tag-natural-selection","tag-neo-darwinism","tag-optimal-design","tag-optimal-panda-principle","tag-paleontology","tag-panda-principle","tag-pandas-thumb","tag-principles-of-engineering","tag-stephen-j-gould","tag-stuart-burgess","tag-systems-biology","tag-systems-engineering","series-intelligent-design-the-future"],"acf":[],"author_names":["Wolf-Ekkehard L\u00f6nnig"],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2025\/05\/panda-bear-eating-bamboo-and-wave-stockpack-adobe-stock-164154368-stockpack-adobestock-scaled.jpg","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2021\/08\/idthefuture-cover.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-download\/43002\/2052.mp3","player_link":"https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-player\/43002\/2052.mp3","audio_player":"<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-43002-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-player\/43002\/2052.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-player\/43002\/2052.mp3\">https:\/\/op3.dev\/e\/idthefuture.com\/podcast-player\/43002\/2052.mp3<\/a><\/audio>","episode_data":{"playerMode":"dark","subscribeUrls":[],"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/feed\/podcast\/intelligent-design-the-future","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"hoDkh74jF1\"><a href=\"https:\/\/idthefuture.com\/2052\/\">Evolved or Engineered? 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