Why remove this option and simply hide it? This will ruin the experience of add-ons like Object Location Tones. It is tremendously useful for me to focus the elements automatically for better perception. Please, I ask you to reconsider this. It is a terrible step backwards in the experience.

Also pointed it in #15463. @ABuffEr, @cary-rowen, @lukaszgo1 and @XLTechie also agree to keep the setting and remove the command.

Are you sure this setting has no positive side at all when checked?

As far as I know, some add-ons, such as UnSpoken, rely on this option because they use the gainFocus event.

I agree with to possibly move it to advanced settings, not with to remove it at all. I cannot point to specific cases, but I'm sure to have used it towaydays from time to time, in poorly designed websites, where the alternative would be to move and move and move manually the focus or the mouse pointer.

Some poorly designed web pages may require users to enable this option as a temporary solution. It may be the fault of the web developer, but having a temporary solution is far better than doing nothing.

Finally, this option is off by default.

Removing this setting would be terrible for me. I use the Object Location Tones add-on to hear a sound every time I move through focusable controls. This really helps me to know where an object is on the screen quickly, and helps me to be more efficient when scrolling through the interface. It also helps me get a picture in my head of the layout of the interface, just as I can do when I'm using a touch device like my mobile phone. Isn't it already enough that it's disabled by default? There are only drawbacks to this

The fact that Object Location tones requires this option is caused by the deficiency in NVDA's core. I';d say this should be fixed before removing this option.

It seems that users who need this, know that they need it. As such, wouldn't a happy medium right now, be to remove the keyboard shortcut to prevent accidental activation by users who don't understand the ramifications, or who were reaching for something else?

Often when I read about problems with this option, it's from users who didn't even realize they had it turned on.

Since removing it would cause problems for a vocal minority, limiting its potential accidental use strikes me as a better first step, while we await some better synchronized scrolling to be implemented.

I also support moving it to advanced, but dropping the script is an easy first action.

@brunoprietog - thanks for re-raising this feedback.
We intend to remove this functionality, but want to ensure impact to add-ons are minimal.

Removing this setting would be terrible for me. I use the Object Location Tones add-on to hear a sound every time I move through focusable controls. This really helps me to know where an object is on the screen quickly, and helps me to be more efficient when scrolling through the interface. It also helps me get a picture in my head of the layout of the interface, just as I can do when I'm using a touch device like my mobile phone. Isn't it already enough that it's disabled by default? There are only drawbacks to this
As far as I know, some add-ons, such as UnSpoken, rely on this option because they use the gainFocus event.
The fact that Object Location tones requires this option is caused by the deficiency in NVDA's core. I';d say this should be fixed before removing this option.

Can these add-ons use the Browse mode cursor like NVDA highlighter? Would adding an extension point or other API endpoint allow them to still be conscious of the browse mode focus.

I'm really not sure, maybe @josephsl has something to contribute here?

Anyway, this feature is still tremendously useful for dealing with some complicated websites. I also use it frequently when developing and diagnosing accessibility issues. It's very useful to know if an element is focusable but not tabbable, i.e. has tabindex=“-1”.

What would be the downside of moving this to advanced settings? This is already disabled by default and the keyboard shortcut would also be accidents free.

What would be the downside of moving this to advanced settings? This is already disabled by default and the keyboard shortcut would also be accidents free.

To put it simply, the feature is unsupported, buggy and no longer maintainable. Advanced settings is intended for supported behaviour, even if experimental, but is not a graveyard for features.

cc @masonasons author of UnSpoken. Can you please read the context of #17598 (comment) and let us know how we can best continue support for this add-on

cc @mltony
The Earcons and speech rules add-on already has the functionality of the unSpoken add-on, but I would still support adding an appropriate extension point for the previous use case.

Hi!

As is currently the situation, yes having Automatically set system focus to focusable elements off using unspoken causes you to not hear where links and other page elements are using the earcons. I'm not entirely sure how extension points in NVDA work, I've not gotten around to figuring that out yet and have limited time, but so long as there would be a way to know when NVDA lands on a browse mode element like a link or such and where that is located on the screen, I imagine it would be possible for someone to implement that support into Unspoken.

@masonasons - I think post_browseModeMove should work for this

Is hat documented anywhere? I'll have a look

@masonasons - it's not documented perfectly but it's mentioned in the developerGuide and has some associate comments in the source code

cc @dbernaca

Hi,
recently, I enabled this option to show a web page correctly scrolled/focused during a working call.
So, is there an alternative way to get the same result?

@ABuffEr @brunoprietog

I also use it frequently when developing and diagnosing accessibility issues.
It's very useful to know if an element is focusable but not tabbable, i.e. has tabindex=“-1”.
recently, I enabled this option to show a web page correctly scrolled/focused during a working call.
So, is there an alternative way to get the same result?

Could you explain these different tasks in a bit more detail?
It's not immediately clear how this setting is useful for debugging accessibility issues

Generally, in conjunction with OPbject Location Tones, if I browse the elements and NVDA emits a tone, I can notice that the control is focusable or not. Then, I can differentiate whether it's tabbable or not, in case I can access the control with tab. Capturing these differences is tremendously easy with this mode.

Also, not using this option generates an inconsistency. How could it be explained that when pressing tab a control is focused, but when passing through it in browse mode it's not? There's an easily reproducible case. If you browse GitHub and look for a comment that has reactions, when you focus the button, right below, it shows who has reacted with that reaction. With this mode disabled, you'd have to reach the item manually with tab, because otherwise the button will never get the focus and the event that shows the reactions below won't be triggered. How would you figure that out without this option enabled? Now that I know, I can apply the workaround, but I'd never have noticed that without this mode. Another common case is comboboxes. Many of them show suggestions when you focus them. Again, you'd have to reach it only with tab, because otherwise it'd never trigger the event. These inconsistencies are very annoying to me, at least.

Re scrolling, there is #9919. I had to abandon it due to lack of time and interest, but I'm pretty sure it can be a good starting point to improve scrolling. Sighted dev would be ideal here.
Personally I support the deprecation path as proposed by @XLTechie, with the addition of instantly moving the GUI option to advanced settings.

@LeonarddeR @brunoprietog - do you think this issue #6382 / #9919 serves as a good summary or starting point for solving the base issue this setting helped with?

For me, the story is different. I started using NVDA with this setting enabled by default, and when I tried to disable it I got all sorts of hard to describe behaviors in addition to my arguments above. Having this option enabled creates predictability and consistency to the navigation.

@brunoprietog that might be the case in certain situations, though that setting enabled causes a lot of cursor jumping and crashes on complex websites with dynamic content. Given Sean's indication that this is impossible to maintain which I second, I think users can live with this setting being disabled. If you want to sync your system focus to the virtual cursor, you can always do that by pressing only one keystroke, namely nvda+shift+backspace. Review cursor always follows virtual cursor, so you can always move the system focus there manually.
Or you can use nvda+space bar to sync virtual and system focus.

You write:

Generally, in conjunction with OPbject Location Tones, if I browse the elements and NVDA emits a tone, I can notice that the control is focusable or not.

You can find out the same when navigating in browse mode with arrow keys, any element with a role is focusable and NVDA always pronounces the role, e.g. button, link, edit field, combo box etc. If you disabled reporting of these roles while using obj location tones add-on, you can always retrieve the tone by pressing nvda+shift+backspace to draw the system focus where you currently are in browse mode.

Removing this setting would be terrible for me. I use the Object Location Tones add-on to hear a sound every time I move through focusable controls. This really helps me to know where an object is on the screen quickly, and helps me to be more efficient when scrolling through the interface. It also helps me get a picture in my head of the layout of the interface, just as I can do when I'm using a touch device like my mobile phone.

You can also get familiar with the interface when moving the mouse and enable tones for mouse movements in the mouse settings category which will give you a rough idea of where objects are located on the screen.
Finally, the add-on itself can be improved to look for NVDA cursor only and not for the system focus.

How could it be explained that when pressing tab a control is focused, but when passing through it in browse mode it's not?

This is not an inconsistency, it is by design. When you are in browse mode and press tab, non focusable objects are traversed as well, and this is a different behavior to focus mode. It could be an option to let this automatic sync setting enabled only when pressing tab or shift+tab while in browse mode, though I am not sure this is feasible.
It is important to understand that the virtual buffer always works separated from the system focus. this is the case for all other screen readers out there.

If you browse GitHub and look for a comment that has reactions, when you focus the button, right below, it shows who has reacted with that reaction. With this mode disabled, you'd have to reach the item manually with tab, because otherwise the button will never get the focus and the event that shows the reactions below won't be triggered. How would you figure that out without this option enabled?

It seems this information is added via aria description or aria describedby, not sure. But this is something NVDA coud improve, e.g. announce "has details" in browse mode on the button with the additional information.
This can be achieved in a separate PR.

Another common case is comboboxes. Many of them show suggestions when you focus them. Again, you'd have to reach it only with tab, because otherwise it'd never trigger the event.

To be honnest it would be a nightmare if every combo box shows suggestion events when I land on them in browse mode. I actually need to know the suggestions only when I interact with combo boxes, and not when I am reviewing things in browse mode. Interactions with combo boxes are possible only in focus mode anyway.

@ABuffEr wrote:

recently, I enabled this option to show a web page correctly scrolled/focused during a working call. So, is there an alternative way to get the same result?

What exactly are you tryin to achieve? You can always check whether the page has scrolled properly by moving the mouse around or by pressing nvda+shift+backspace from time to time in case there are focusable objects near to your browse mode position. Or am I wrong?

@brunoprietog you wrote:

I'm sure to have used it towaydays from time to time, in poorly designed websites, where the alternative would be to move and move and move manually the focus or the mouse pointer.
Some poorly designed web pages may require users to enable this option as a temporary solution.

I never encountered such a website. Can you provide a test website where this is the case? I strongly believe people use this old approach because the newer workarounds have never been given a chance.

Finally, this option is off by default.

Still it causes difficulties in investigation when people report issues and they are caused by this setting.

It's very useful to know if an element is focusable but not tabbable, i.e. has tabindex=“-1”.

Tabindex -1 is not focusable at all with the system focus, it is only focusable with the virtual cursor. I'd say the accessibility inspectors out there give already enough comfort to find out which elements are not focusable, you don't really need this add-on for proofing websites. Anyway, if the add-on owuld provide the option to look only for nvda cursor instead of system focus, then you would get the same result with this setting disabled, so this can be improved within the add-on itself.

@seanbudd Yes, I think that this issue and pull request are a good starting point to ensure the scrolling behavior is OK with the automatically set focus option disabled.
That said, I'm not sure whether the experiences as described by @brunoprietog are all related to scrolling.

@Adriani90 wrote:

What exactly are you tryin to achieve? You can always check whether the page has scrolled properly by moving the mouse around or by pressing nvda+shift+backspace from time to time in case there are focusable objects near to your browse mode position. Or am I wrong?

Simply I was showing to colleagues a page with a lot of content (a Udemy course lessons organized in various tables), and enabling that option the page scrolled while I was moving for headers, links and so on.
Pressing nvda+shift+backspace each time or worse trying to control mouse seem to be a doable but not practical solution to me, sincerely.
Anyway, I read there is a PR about scrolling, and it's a good point. I'm not convinced that the focus option should be removed until that PR is not merged, but, well...

I'm a bit confused that this is merged as is without noticeably addressing the concerns raised by @XLTechie, @ABuffEr and @brunoprietog.
@seanbudd Could you please elaborate on why the deprecation path as proposed by @XLTechie and seconded by me is not feasible?

@LeonarddeR as answered earlier here - #17598 (comment)
To put it simply, the feature is unsupported, buggy and no longer maintainable. Advanced settings is intended for supported behaviour, even if experimental, but is not a graveyard for features.

Additionally, this feature has been disabled and discouraged for several years at this point. Delaying it another year is just delaying pulling off the bandaid, it's going to hurt the same now as later.

@seanbudd I understand that NV Access cannot support forever an unsupported buggy and unmaintainable feature. Though the reality is that various people still rely on it.

Thus, will there be a push/a priorization to solve scrolling issues?

Regarding add-ons author relying on this feature, it was up to them to ask for alternative methods (e.g. extension points) since the feature was already deprecated.

Can we figure out if this functionality is making Resilio Sync Web UI more usable? I recently spent 10 minutes trying to get the options button to appear next to a folder with no success until I pressed NVDA+6, NVDA+7 and NVDA+8 in frustration and I then moved to the name of the folder, pressed enter then NVDA+shift+m and I heard the name of the folder indicating the mouse finally moved onto it. The options button appeared on the right end of the row and I was off to the races. I can try to reproduce, but until I pressed those 3 keystrokes nothing was working to be able to connect a folder.

In all fairness, I pressed all 3 between the last try that failed, and the try that succeeded, so we don't know 100 percent that NVDA+8 did the trick.

I need to verify my claim I think. But just something minor like this is huge. Even if Resilio could do something better to improve accessibility, but if you remove that and I still can't get Resilio to fix it, I won't be able to use Resilio anymore until I launch JAWS, and I don't have JAWS on the particular machine I was fighting with last night and Narrator doesn't seem to give me a way to mess with the mouse hover thing, at least not that I know about, so I can't even do it there.

To clarify, Resilio uses a table for the folders view. The folder names are on the first column, and I guess visually you can hover your mouse over the name of the folder and on the right most column you will get buttons you could click to manage that folder. From an accessibility standpoint, it means arrowing up and down in the first column till you get the folder you want, then you press enter to try and scroll the window there, and then you press NVDA+shift+m to move the mouse there. If it works, you can press b to get to the buttons.

If I get round to trying to reproduce this I'll offer another comment. I don't understand NVDA+6, NVDA+7 or NVDA+8 enough right now to really have the expert input I wish I did, but I do have legit concerns until I'm able to verify that NVDA+8 is not the reason behind my inability to get the mouse to ever hover over the foldername.

ok, so on further investigation, my issue is with NVDA+6. I withdraw my own objections to this. I have no idea why having NVDA+6 turned off makes NVDA+shift+m not work, but it absolutely does, I can easily reproduce it every time. meh.

Sorry about the extraneous comment. It turned out to be easier to figure it out than I thought. I was even able to do it on my everyday computer. The one I reproduced it on first has a 6 inch screen and I thought I was going to have to get it running again to duplicate.

On the other hand, if you have the NVDA+8 thing turned on it makes certain websites unusable. For example, Shipstation.com and shippo.com, and I can understand how people not realizing that they turned this on would be a major negative worth addressing.

Hi there.

When this feature is not available, I can't open new tabs on browsers based on chromium. Chrome, Edge, Brave, using control + enter...
I tried to focus with NVDA + shift + backspace first, but this didn't work.
If you're moving with tab, then the things work OK, but I don't use tab when I'm using browser mode.

Strangely, press Shift + enter works correctly in most cases, but not control + enter.
This issue does not happen using firefox, but that's not the solution.

To test it, do the following:

1. Search for something using google and chrome.
2. Navigate through results using headings (letter h).
3. Open a result in a new tab, using control + enter.

Currently, I need to press applications key, and select the option open in a new tab, that's not comfortable.

If you do that test using firefox, everything works properly.

So, I think this can be fixed, but I don't know the solution. I tried to fix this some years ago, catching the control + enter gesture and trying to focus the element first, for some reason it didn't work.

Hi @davidacm. So that the issue be better tracked, I'd really recommend you to open a new issue, indicating clearly that it's considered a regression during 2025.1 dev cycle (even if the option was disabled and deprecated for long now).

@davidacm I'm not experiencing that issue with

• Google Chrome Version 134.0.6998.178 (Official Build) (64-bit); or
• Microsoft Edge for Business Version 134.0.3124.93 (Official build) (64-bit); and
• NVDA Version alpha-35749,17d5fcc6 (2025.1.0.35749)

Steps:

1. Open Chrome (or Edge)
2. Type a query into the search box, and hit enter.
3. Make sure I'm in browse mode, and use H to jump between search results.
4. Press Ctrl+Enter to open the desired result in a new tab.
5. Press Ctrl+Tab to switch to the newly opened tab.

Do your steps differ in any way from mine? Do you have any add-ons installed, either in NVDA or Chrome that could be causing the issue?

Thanks @SaschaCowley, you're right!
I have a personal add-on with some experiments and personal utils.
I used to catch control + enter for some sities, and if the current site is not the site that I need to process something before open the new tab, it just send the gesture.
This was affecting everything.
This isproblem happened in the past, When I didn't have this add-on, so I thought that was the same issue.

Everything works properly with the specific script disabled.

Thanks for testing and sorry for my mistake!

No worries, @davidacm, glad the problem is solved