1. Tooltips were NOT removed because of accessibility. They could have been made accessible
2. In Joomla 3 there was no indicator if something had a tooltip so everything did. 90% of which were completely useless. Making the job of translaters much much harder
3. In Joomla 4 we decided to show "tooltips" permanently where needed. As can be seen here
   
4. "Tooltips" should provide additional information to provide clarity on the purpose of the field. They should not replace a help document

Did we get it 100% right. Probably not but that is why we had beta versions and release candidates so that people could test and give feedback. If my memory serves me correctly it is three years since the change was made.

90% of which were completely useless

I don't mean to be annoying, just think of it as a technical question. Was there any research done on this, a poll, or did someone simply say it would be better not to display certain information?

For me personally, it's very inconsistent and confusing because I don't see any key in when to display the hint or not. What I see as systematic and not confusing is that the tooltip will also display information that most people don't need to know.

In fact, the tooltip has one great feature. Those who want to see it, will go to the tooltip. Those who don't want to see it won't see anything. People just know, where to find the quick help.

Probably not but that is why we had beta versions and release candidates so that people could test and give feedback.

Does it mean, it is not allowed to give feedback for stable version?

I will give myself as an example. I am only now getting feedback from community members. Either I can tell these members that it is too late, or I am simply trying to provide this feedback even now. It's not always about the person giving the feedback, but also about the person collecting more feedback in their community, and it comes gradually and later.

If my memory serves me correctly it is three years since the change was made.

Another very important thing is that the extensions in which this issue shows up in full are only available from the stable release. I would strongly urge everyone to not only look at features from the core perspective, but also from the extension perspective. Something that's not so prominent in the core can be very problematic in extensions.

I don't want to cause conflicts, please don't take this personally, but if I played a game with my users like "90% is useless, you should have called when Beta was, etc." I wouldn't have any more users :-( Why I'm talking about this. Because I am part of various Joomla communities where people are leaving Joomla as a system because nobody listens to them.

BTW - I am not writing this comment as myself, rather I am speaking for the people in the communities in which I am a member. For me personally, such a shortage is more of an opportunity to create another extension that people will thank me for.

ecause I don't see any key in when to display the hint or not. What I see as systematic and not confusing is that the tooltip will also display information that most people don't need to know.

Display it when its useful. Dont when its not.

Just looking at your own downloads extension you can see how many of the field descriptions are completely useless and of no help to anyone at all. So you really think it is helpful to make your users hover over every field to see if there is some hidden magic only to read such useless text. They will quickly realise they are useless and stop even looking - and then you as a developer will wonder why people dont understand your extension

Just picking one field as an example

I don't mean to be annoying, just think of it as a technical question. Was there any research done on this, a poll, or did someone simply say it would be better not to display certain information?

Yes I said it was useless to display useless information. It was merged very very early so that you could give feedback on it. It was not something changed at the last minute. The beta and rc releases are the research.

Does it mean, it is not allowed to give feedback for stable version?

No one stops you but then again your opinion would have been more useful earlier

Something that's not so prominent in the core can be very problematic in extensions.

Not at all. None of your descriptions are hidden now. They are all displayed for your users to see and they dont have to hover over field one at a time to see them.

YES I AM ANGRY WHEN CODE COMMITTED THREE YEARS AGO IS COMPLAINED ABOUT AS IF IT WAS COMMITTED YESTERDAY.

YES I AM ANGRY WHEN CODE COMMITTED THREE YEARS AGO IS COMPLAINED ABOUT AS IF IT WAS COMMITTED YESTERDAY.

Did you read what I wrote? It's a reality that you don't get feedbacks from other members until the stable version. Yes, the reality is that 99% of the members in all the communities where I am a member only started testing the version when it was stable. And someone is simply listening to those members and conveying that feedback only now. And either we want to hear it or we ignore it. But the fact is that simply based on various events, this feedback is only coming now. That's just the reality.

It's just feedback, an opinion. It's not something to upset anyone.

Did we get it 100% right. Probably not but that is why we had beta versions and release candidates so that people could test and give feedback. If my memory serves me correctly it is three years since the change was made.

Well, yes - some param descriptions can be shorter or do not need to be displayed. However, there are some params that really need a bigger description. E.g. params in Global configuration. All params matter!
The users won't go to the documentation if something is not yet clear. They will skip such params and the level of knowledge be reduced for the average new user.

Sorry but I think it is always never too late to report bugs and suggest improvements. Just remember how Joomla 3 was changed from the beginning and how many cool featured were implemented later.
The persons representing the project should endorse everyone who spends their time testing the CMS and writing the feedback, sooner or later. Joomla is a free platform and everyone work on it when they have time/motivation/etc.
I think it is good when the project gets feedback. It shows that the project is live and active.

The change WAS DONE 3 YEARS AGO where was your feedback all these years?

Please read:

Did you read what I wrote? It's a reality that you don't get feedbacks from other members until the stable version. Yes, the reality is that 99% of the members in all the communities where I am a member only started testing the version when it was stable. And someone is simply listening to those members and conveying that feedback only now. And either we want to hear it or we ignore it. But the fact is that simply based on various events, this feedback is only coming now. That's just the reality.

Another very important thing is that the extensions in which this issue shows up in full are only available from the stable release. I would strongly urge everyone to not only look at features from the core perspective, but also from the extension perspective. Something that's not so prominent in the core can be very problematic in extensions.

I will give myself as an example. I am only now getting feedback from community members. Either I can tell these members that it is too late, or I am simply trying to provide this feedback even now. It's not always about the person giving the feedback, but also about the person collecting more feedback in their community, and it comes gradually and later.

All written above.

You really don't understand that many many people started to test Joomla 4 now?

What exactly don't you understand about the user feedback only coming in now for various reasons?

How do I understand that instead of arguing about the use of a property, we deal with what time the feedback came?

Is there a reason we're diverting the conversation away from factual comments to personal attacks? Why should someone who provides feedback has to answer personal questions about why he/she didn't provide that feedback three years ago?

I think it is good when the project gets feedback.

The change WAS DONE 3 YEARS AGO where was your feedback all these years?

Damn, you're absolutely unbearable!
Joomla does not pay money and cannot demand users to be volunteers. That's why it took 7 years for J4 to be released.
I am obliged neither you nor the community to take part WHEN YOU THINK it's good. I do it in my spare time when I have a mood. I hope it is directly clear.
The community members SHOULD BE thankful to users for the feedback and the time spent on the project.

Leave your imagined world with pink ponies and unicors (how it should be) and return to reality (how it is).

You really don't understand that many many people started to test Joomla 4 now?

I do understand that

Another very important thing is that the extensions in which this issue shows up in full are only available from the stable release.

Let me ask you something: did you put the energy required to bring your extension to the J4 level? To me this complaint is all about my old forms were fine and now they look bad. But it's not Joomla's fault, the project decided to simplify by removing cluttered information AND make prominent all the needed information. Of course, you have to ADJUST your forms to comply with the new format by better naming your labels and use efficient descriptions wherever these are needed.
The part that you need information for every field goes from UI to Documentation and if you have to roll the documentation embedded in the form, then something is really wrong and that definitely is not the platform...

It's good to know that some extensions don't include simple parameters like whether or not to publish an article. But also parameters for which there are many pages of documentation (just for the parameter itself), and the short version used in the tooltip contains dozens/hundreds of words because it is in context with other parameters. This has nothing to do with personal stuff like "my old form". If you knew my extensions, you would know that I try to adapt them to the latest features of the system, unlike many other developers.

This is a general suggestion about simply being able to test some things when the system was stable. Because it was only then that various extensions were available that contained different features than core.

But it depends on everyone, my advice is that when I create a feature, I don't just look at how it will work in core, I also look at how it will work in extensions or in other parts. I'm not just thinking about making sure that parameters are easy to explain, but also that some parameters, even if they have extensive documentation, unfortunately have to have extensive information in the tooltip.

Whether the person who does such propriety wants to hear that is up to them. However, it would be good to make a factual arguments.

But let's leave the extension aside, in the first question I see the core parameter "Enable versions" in the images as an example. I really don't think I can find any Joomla user who would appreciate the fact that now he/she has to visit external documentation for a parameter that says nothing.

In abbreviated computer speech:

Tooltip:
a) I need short explanation for this parameter - great, it is here
b) I don't need short explanation for this parameter - great, it is not here, because I didn't hover the parameter title

No description at all:
a) I need short explanation for this parameter - hmmm, nothing there, I need to search web
b) I don't need short explanation for this parameter - great, it is not there.

And again, this is an opinion, an opinion at the time we came across this problem. If it's too late or you don't like this opinion, maybe it's better to leave it without comment.

I think it is good when the project gets feedback.

The change WAS DONE 3 YEARS AGO where was your feedback all these years?

Also, since I was involved in this change, I kept repeating this quote: A user interface is like a joke. If you have to explain it, it's not that good. - Martin LeBlanc

Also another quote from Elon Musk:
Some people don't like change, but you need to embrace change if the alternative is disaster.

3 YEARS AGO Joomla was in alpha stage and was tested only by developers.
Now Joomla has become available to ordinary users who have encountered a problem. They do not understand what this or that parameter does. Previously, they could read the tooltip. There are no hints right now. What is understandable to the developer is not clear to the ordinary user who's blogging their cat's site

@Sulpher @PhocaCz @kernusr Let me educate you a little bit because by criticizing without the appropriate knowledge you're offending some people here, particularly Brian and me in this case.

The decision to declutter the UI was one of the main goals for Joomla 4.
The actionable tasks were (roughly speaking) two:

• Remove tooltips and inline the description where was needed (that was done)
• Introduce a better inplace help which I coarsely implemented as a possible way that this could be done back in 2017: Tour de Joomla, an interactive guide... 40-backend-template#247

The in-place help part then was given to a GSOC student in 2018, but the solution was rejected: https://github.com/joomla-projects/gsoc17_helpscreens_on_jdocs

The in-place help was given again to a GSOC student this year and I have no clue what's the status: https://github.com/joomla-projects/soc21_guided-tour

In short, the project had a very viable solution that would cover every requirement that was given. Unfortunately, you are criticizing something with a very poor background on the subject.
YES right now the help part is suffering but this is due to the lack of contributors.

Ideas are not exactly contributions, you want to help then present some code...

And I'm unsubscribing...

@Sulpher @PhocaCz @kernusr Let me educate you a little bit because by criticizing without the appropriate knowledge you're offending some people here, particularly Brian and me in this case.

@dgrammatiko Please let me know where exactly I offended you?

Can you distinguish between criticism and feedback? If we are giving some feedback without some knowledge, then surely there is some rational argument and certainly not an argument like "The change WAS DONE 3 YEARS AGO where was your feedback all these years?" Only now will I make the first criticism. Instead of addressing what is in the very first post, i.e. the missing parameter description, there is only misrepresentation and nonsensical arguments with personal attacks, but certainly not from our side.

So can we get back to the point? The missing parameter description.

You’re all wasting your time. It’s like talking to a stone wall. No matter what you say and when you’ll be told you’re wrong. That’s the one true Joomla way of dealing with its contributors.

Three years ago Joomla was alpha 2 and every comment about the UI was met with “this is alpha, it is not the final version, we are still making changes to the template”. Now you’re told you should’ve provided feedback back when it was blatantly ignored.

Two years ago it was late alphas when I contributed improvements to Download Keys. I added tooltips. I was asked to remove them because accessibility. Now you’re told they don’t have to do with accessibility per se.

You’re told that the interface should be intuitive, yet Joomla has many non obvious options. We could phrase them with long sentences but this is against decluttering, the supposed main goal in J4. Meanwhile the documentation page for many core pages, including the Users options for example, is out of date and there is no indication what each option does.

I think it’s pretty obvious what is going on. There has been ZERO UX work on Joomla 4, something which is blatantly obvious to those of us who were at the Joomla 4 sprint in Athens when the UX lead was told that the UX team is supposed to just say yes to everything the developers want to implement. That’s why she quit. She never told anybody but fuck it, she’s my wife now, she told me and I can finally say it after six years. That’s Joomla’s problem, right there. UX needs to drive development, not the other way around. UX is about what our target audience needs to get shit done, not any one person’s ego. I’ve implemented things in my software I personally disagree with EXACTLY BECAUSE the UX research said that my users actually needed those features to get stuff done. If people here can’t put their massive egos to the side to help the users that’s a systemic failure and the single most major endemic problem in Joomla.

I was also in Athens and can't remember that someone said the UX team should just say yes, anyway I don't know anything but this wasn't an offical statement from team. We all know we can do better in certain areas and I can understand the frustration on both sides. From what I know the guided tour project was good and successful. For the people missing information at some places, let's discuss and add them if they are providing something usefull. I can say that I am not a big fan of tooltips, if they have to be there, there then to often without information. I know this becuase have written to much of them :-)

Cars, unfortunately, do not have inline help. When a light comes up on the dashboard you need to pull to the side and consult the documentation — or call someone who is familiar with it. Luckily, a CMS isn't a car. We CAN provide inline help. You don't have to stop what you are doing to consult the documentation or call someone. We can show you a reminder of what this thing is when you need it the most.

Thank you for the apt example. If we don't understand such a basic and clear principle of UI/UX, then it's hard to reach new users, plus we lose existing users who are being deprived of these basic and very natural elements.

Hi there,
need your help.
How do I display the text of a description?
I looked at all the examples where "description" ist dieplayed. Why is that so?
What do I have to adjust to make the description visible?
Any help appreciated :-)

Greetings
Mareike

Example:

<field
    name="MOD_SOMENAME_FUNCTIONALITY_LABEL"
    description="MOD_SOMENAME_FUNCTIONALITY_LABEL"
    type="functionality"
    >

Since J4 there is a button on top right "inline Help". It is a toggler to show or hide descriptions.

This is a rather old and very long discussion. If you have more question, could you pleas open a new on discussions?

How do I display the text of a description?

You can't (at least not easily) since the changes done with the introduction of the inline help button affect ALL the descriptions (with initially hiding everything).

Also since Guided Tours are already part of the CMS the whole inline help is just irrelevant. Would be nice to eventually revert it and have the form fields with the description always visible (as it was with v4.0.0)

My 2 cents

Tooltips are generally used to provide help. Joomla has always used Tooltips and until then everything was fine.

Then, for some incomprehensible reason, Tooltips were thrown away and replaced with text under each parameter. But this has the disadvantage where some descriptions are longer and can cause lack of clarity for form fields. That is why the switch button was chosen.

1. A switch is not ideal
2. The second problem is that somewhere descriptions have disappeared completely and sometimes even an experienced user does not know what exactly a given form field means.

I don't understand why this is no good for us? Why we have to discard standards? We have made life completely pointless and unnecessarily complicated for ourselves and Joomla users by discarding standards. Even ones that have worked flawlessly in Joomla all along.

By the way, Tooltips are still accessible in Joomla and work both on desktop (hover) and mobile (click):

1. People who need help can easily access it via hover or click

2. People who don't need the help are not bothered by it at all.

Let's not go on and on about nonsense and use the standards everyone is used to.

MOBILE:

DESKTOP:

In short:

1. Help is needed

2. The text directly below the form field can be annoying:
   a) It makes the form unclear
   b) It annoys experienced administrators

3. Tooltip solves these problems
   a) It offers easily accessible help
   b) It can be long, but it can also be empty
   c) It doesn't bother anyone who doesn't need it
   d) It will show the description only for the selected parameter and not for all (not the ones user doesn't need)
   e) It's just a standard that was created specifically for this purpose.

A truely heated discussion :-D

Thank you, with some clues I could figure out, that:

• the description is ALWAYS there (=in the html)
• just need to adjust / manipulate the html , from css classe d-none to d_block

THANK OUT :-))))

ANd this descussion reminde s me, that everybody wants the best for J!, you are great!