{"id":45,"date":"2020-08-23T21:16:48","date_gmt":"2020-08-23T21:16:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/?page_id=45"},"modified":"2020-08-26T13:23:52","modified_gmt":"2020-08-26T13:23:52","slug":"the-precursor-problem","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/the-precursor-problem\/","title":{"rendered":"THE PRECURSOR PROBLEM"},"content":{"rendered":"<body>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"jetpack-video-wrapper\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"THE PRECURSOR PROBLEM - 7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/f9MR0zsTLbE?start=22&amp;feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>The first Pretrib Problem on our list is called the \u201cPrecursor Problem,\u201d and in order to understand it we need to first talk a little about the so-called Day of the Lord.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Alan Hultberg<\/strong>: \u201cThe Day of the Lord is an Old Testament concept for when God shows up in history and finally, in the end, to judge his enemies and sometimes to vindicate or rescue his people.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David Rosenthal<\/strong>: \u201cIt really means, the time of God\u2019s Wrath in an ultimate sense. \u00a0When God will pour out His judgment, His vengeance on a wicked world.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Charles Cooper<\/strong>: \u201cScripture explicitly declares that the Saints will not experience the eschatological Wrath of God\u2014the<a> <\/a>Wrath of God that is typically associated with what we call the Day of the Lord. Therefore, the question in my opinion\u2014really, the only question is, \u2018When does the Wrath of God begin?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As mentioned earlier, Pretribulationists teach that the entire 7-year period is the Wrath of God, and that the rapture will occur <em>just before<\/em> it begins. Importantly, they also believe that the rapture is <em>imminent<\/em> meaning that it can happen at any moment, and there are no prophetic events that must come before the rapture. \u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, there are at least four events explicitly stated to come <em>before <\/em>the <em>Day of the Lord<\/em> in Scripture:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ryan Habbena<\/strong>:\u00a0 \u201cNow, this is a very big problem for Pretribulational imminence because as Pretribulational imminence is defined, there are to be no precursors, no necessary precursors before the coming of the Day of the Lord or the coming of the rapture.\u00a0 But we have explicit declarations in the Bible that we have several precursors that <em>have to come<\/em> before the great and terrible Day of the Lord.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Alan Kurschner<\/strong>: \u201cPretribulational teachers admit themselves that if you can find one event that will occur before the rapture, then it contradicts imminence theology and hence, it contradicts Pretribulational theology.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Alan Hultberg<\/strong>:\u00a0\u201cWell, definitely the fact that the Scriptures tell us that there are going to be precursors [prior] to the Day of the Lord is an argument against Pretribulationism.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To clarify, based on where Pretrib teachers have traditionally placed the rapture, if these four <em>biblically<\/em> <em>prophesied<\/em> events occur before the Day of the Lord, it means there are, in fact, events that must come before the rapture, the very thing Pretribbers say cannot occur.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We will discuss several of the precursors in other sections, but I want to focus on one in particular here found in the book of Joel.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u201cThe sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, <em>before<\/em> the great and awesome day of the Lord comes\u201d (Joel 2:31).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>David Rosenthal<\/strong>: \u201cMany of the Old Testament prophets wrote about this time, the Day of the Lord, the time of God\u2019s Wrath. And almost every time you read about it in the Old Testament, you\u2019re going to find it connected with something that I term \u201ccosmic disturbance.\u201d Something happens to the sun, the moon, and the stars.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Alan Hultberg<\/strong>:\u00a0\u201cIsaiah 13 [and] other passages in the Old Testament present these cosmic disturbances that will be signs that the Day of the Lord has arrived.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Alan Kurschner<\/strong>: \u201cJoel explicitly states it\u2019s going to happen <em>before<\/em>, not during, <em>before<\/em> the Day of the Lord.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is so important, because there are two prophecies in the New Testament about when this particular celestial sign takes place. The first, in Matthew, makes it clear that the sun, moon, and star sign occurs \u201c<em>immediately after the tribulation of those days\u201d<\/em> and everyone agrees that <em>\u201cthose days,\u201d<\/em> in context, is a reference to the persecution that begins directly <em>after <\/em>the abomination of desolation, which theologians call the Great Tribulation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, if you compare Joel 2:31 which says that this sign occurs <em>before the Day of the Lord<\/em> with the passage we just read in Matthew that says the cosmic sign comes <em>after the great tribulation<\/em> which begins at the midpoint, you have explicit evidence that the Day of the Lord is not seven years long, but rather that it begins at some unknown point <em>after <\/em>the middle of the 70<sup>th<\/sup> week.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We see this confirmed in Revelation chapter 6 where it says that this celestial disturbance sign occurs at the so-called sixth seal, and even most Pretribulationists will agree that the sixth seal in Revelation takes place <em>after<\/em> the midpoint of the 7-year period.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We will talk more about Revelation 6 and the seals in another section, but for now let\u2019s see how Pretribbers try to explain some of the things we have brought up so far.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Surprisingly, few Pretib scholars have addressed the Precursor Problem at all, but of the few that have, they present three possible solutions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dr. Richard Mayhue, a very accomplished and well-respected Pretribulational scholar, chose to simply agree that there were precursors to the Day of the Lord connected to the midpoint, and that the Day of the Lord must, therefore, start after those precursors after the midpoint. \u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Charles Cooper<\/strong>: \u201cBut I\u2019m inclined to follow more along lines of Dr. Richard Mayhue who argues that the typical long-term historical aspect or thinking regarding the beginning of the Day of the Lord probably needs to be re-thought among Pretribbers\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As you may have noticed this timeline of Mayhue\u2019s is pretty much exactly what the Prewrathers teach, with one very important exception. Mayhue places the rapture the same place that Pretribbers always have, just beforethe 7-year period starts, whereas Prewrathers place the rapture just before the Day of the Lord starts, at some unknown point after the midpoint.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mayhue does this because he is still a Pretribulationist, and so he can\u2019t compromise on the idea of imminence. Therefore, he can\u2019t allow these events to occur before the rapture, as it would destroy the idea of an any moment rapture. So, while he allows for these events to occur before the Day of the Lord, he moves the rapture well before the Day of the Lord so there are still no events that occur before it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Prewrathers have come to call this method of dealing with the Precursor Problem the \u201cGap theory.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Basically, this theory places a significant gap of time between the rapture and the Day of the Lord. In Dr. Mayhue\u2019s view, the gap is over three-and-a-half years long, but there are slightly different takes on the gap theory out there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For example, Pretribulationists like Arnold Fruchtenbaum who recognize various aspects of the Precursor Problem but still want to maintain the traditional Pretrib view that the Day of the Lord is seven years long, have to do something a little more radical. They assert that the rapture happens at some undefined, but significant, amount of time before the 7-year period even begins.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It has to be a fairly long gap to accommodate all four precursors, though there has been no attempt to define exactly how long of a gap it will be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Both manifestations of the gap theory have the same fundamental problem which is that Jesus teaches that the rapture and the beginning of the Wrath of God are back-to-back events that occur on the same day. And if that is true, there can be no gap between the rapture and the Day of the Lord.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One of the reasons people on all sides of the debate have historically placed the rapture just prior to the Day of the Lord, with no gap, is because of Jesus\u2019 teaching in the Olivet Discourse, which says:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u201cBut concerning that day and hour\u00a0no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,\u00a0nor the Son, but the Father only.For as were the days of Noah,\u00a0so will be the coming of the Son of Man.\u00a0For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking,\u00a0marrying and giving in marriage, <em>until\u00a0the day<\/em> when Noah entered the ark,and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away,\u00a0so will be the coming of the Son of Man.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And in Luke\u2019s account the parable of Lot is added to this:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u201cLikewise, just as it was in the days of\u00a0Lot\u2014they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building,but <em>on the day<\/em> when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all\u2014so will it be<em>on the day<\/em> when the Son of Man is revealed.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Ryan Habbena<\/strong>: \u201cThey are joined; they are back to back. And we see that pattern throughout Scripture. Like with Noah, it was on the same day. And Noah entered the ark that day the floods came. Furthermore, with Lot.\u00a0 It was on the same day that he exited, that the wrath came, and fire came upon Sodom. Really the rapture triggers the Day of the Lord because now it is time for retribution, for vindication.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This idea that the righteous would be rescued on the same day that the Day of the Lord<a> <\/a>began is probably why the New Testament writers consistently spoke of the Day of the Lord as good for believers, but bad for everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It is the day we will receive our rewards and be with Christ, but it\u2019s also the day God\u2019s Wrath will be poured out on the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is why Peter said we should look for and hasten the Day of the Lord.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It\u2019s why Jesus said when we see the sign that the Day of the Lord is about to occur, we should lift up our heads because our redemption draws nigh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This idea that the rapture happens on the same day that the Day of the Lord\u2019s wrath begins is very conservative theology, believed from the earliest days of the Church. It\u2019s actually still believed by the majority of Pretribbers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It is only those who have realized the implications of the Precursor Problem who have begun to seek out alternative theologies about the timing of the Day of the Lord in relationship to the rapture.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The third way Pretribulationists have attempted to deal with the Precursor Problem is to claim that there are <em>two<\/em> \u201cDays of the Lord\u201d\u2014one that is seven years long, and another twenty-four hour \u201cDay of the Lord\u201d associated with Armageddon.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This theory allows them to have all the precursors take place before their new twenty-four-hour Day of the Lord, and because they place the rapture immediately prior to the beginning of the seven yearlong version of the Day of the Lord, they can maintain Pretrib imminence that no prophesied events occur before the rapture.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There are a lot of problems with this argument, but the main one is that, as we have seen, the celestial disturbance precursor, which is said to occur <em>before<\/em> the Day of the Lord in Joel 2:31, takes places at the 6<sup>th<\/sup> seal in Revelation 6:12-14.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is significant because even though there are some minor disagreements about the timing of the first few seals in relationship to the 7-year period, the 6<sup>th<\/sup> seal is almost universally believed to be after the midpoint. So, that means this theory would require a <em>third <\/em>Day of the Lord to be added to their list because the 6<sup>th<\/sup> seal is unquestionably after the beginning of the 7-year period, and at the very least <em>five months before the Armageddon<\/em>! We know this because of the 5<sup>th<\/sup> trumpet, which is a part of the Day of the Lord, is said to be five months long.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We will learn much more about the 6<sup>th<\/sup> seal and how it relates to the Day of the Lord in another section of this film, but needless to say, this third option isn\u2019t a very popular one among Pretribbers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In their defense, the Precursor Problem doesn\u2019t leave Pretribbers with many <em>good <\/em>options, and so the most common way they deal with it is to avoid explaining these problems to their fellow Pretribbers in the first place.\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>The first Pretrib Problem on our list is called the \u201cPrecursor Problem,\u201d and in order to understand it we need to first talk a little about the so-called Day of the Lord.\u00a0\u00a0 Alan Hultberg: \u201cThe Day of the Lord is an Old Testament concept for when God shows up in history and finally, in the&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"parent":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-45","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"aioseo_notices":[],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/Pci4WS-J","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/45"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=45"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/45\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":178,"href":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/45\/revisions\/178"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/7pretribproblems.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=45"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}